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Artwork feedback

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Ok guys, feedback please! http://www.skellyart.com/images/3dArt/trex.jpg http://www.skellyart.com/images/3dArt/vercingetorix.jpg http://www.skellyart.com/images/3dArt/Wolf.jpg That's the polygon count I was asked to use concerning the wolf and yes, it looks perfect when animated with deformation no being an issue.

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Looks awesome. Especially like the horseman. Imo, the T-Rex looks a little clumsy, but that's just me; you're nevertheless a better CG artist than I am ;).

Regards,

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TRex:
Anatomically impossible. Its feet rest way too far in front of its center of gravity (currently they are under his jaw). His weight is far in back of that. Also, the arms look too close to the legs, and they'd interfere with each other.

There is no sort of flow of topology in the mesh. If you look at a proper mesh, edgeloops follow muscles so they deform correctly, there is more geometry at the joints, there are only quads in deformation areas, etc. Right now there are a ton of needless triangles and no flow to the mesh, which leads to severe inefficiency and improper deformation (As well as being way to high poly currently for any game engine). It looks very sloppy, and is poor overall... you can achieve the same form with half the amount of polygons, and it'd probably look even better in a properly set up mesh.

The texture looks OK.

Gallic Horseman:
Anatomically incorrect again (we're seeing a trend here). Firstly, proportions are off, especially in arm length, hand size, foot size, some others. The shoulders are way off. The pectoral muscle leads under the deltoid (shoulder muscle), not into it. Right now the chest turns into the shoulder, which looks really strange. Also, it looks like his back is broader than his chest, which again looks strange. He has 8 abdomen muscles, which is impossible... anything greater than a 'six pack' is impossible. His bonnet string muscles on his neck look OK, but his collarbones coming from the pit of the chest look really strange, and appear to join up with the deltoid/pectorals.

The mesh is, TBH, extremely poor. First of all, why is it triangulated? Second of all, this mesh again lacks a proper topology. Topology should either follow musculature, or create an evenly deformable surface. Right now it does neither. What jumps out is his ribs... they shouldn't be modelled, they should be done via texture. Also, whats with the hair... that's not how hair is modelled. Between the horse tail and the horseman hair, you can eliminate a ton of polys while making him look much better.

Texture again is decent.

Wolf:
Easily your best model, but still needs alot of work. First, his front shoulder muscle is at the wrong place on the model, adjust the UV map or texture. And unless you have some edges following that muscle boundary, its going to be lost/distorted during animation.
The other thing you can do is make all square/cubic/4 sided surfaces rotated 45 degrees. Instead of the legs being a square in section, make them a diamond in section. This goes for the legs, tail, nose, etc., anything that should be round. You'd be amazed how much rounder a form looks.

Overall, you have enough experience that you can begin improving and refining your craft. I'd suggest the following:
If you are going to pursue creatures/humans, you need to learn anatomy. There is no way around this. You need to understand skeletons, muscles, weight, poses, locomotion, etc., to understand how a 'fictional dinosaur' moves and thus how its legs are modelled, and you need to know proper proportions and muscles to model a human.
Look at good, clean meshes. Examine how they do things (such as represent ribs), how their topology flows, their geometry distribution, etc.
Keep practicing, but make sure you're not going at things blind... make sure you get critiques, you continue improving, you get proper reference, etc.

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Original post by SinisterUrge
Your a wanker!

If I wanted "expert" feedback I'll go to a fellow professional, not an amateur know it all!

i'll just take a wild guess... and say that you didn't like what he told you ; )
but i do agree with him. your main problem is your messy wireframes, and yes it does matter how clean they are (alot!).

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Original post by SinisterUrge
Your a wanker!

If I wanted "expert" feedback I'll go to a fellow professional, not an amateur know it all!


If you don't want to know, don't ask.
Post these in cgTalk or cgChat and you'll get an almost identical response to professor420's. His was detailed, helpful and constructive. Reply like you did above, and you'll get a swift ban from the forums. You very obviously aren't a professional, but you could at least try and act like one.

D.

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Quote:
Original post by SinisterUrge
Your a wanker!

If I wanted "expert" feedback I'll go to a fellow professional, not an amateur know it all!


Ouch!
Professor420 was just pointing out the weakness in your models.
I'm just a programmer but I work with (3d)artists all the time.
And I do agree completely.

Your models are a good starting point...
Now you should take the critics and improve.
How are you gonna improve if you just react like that?

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My bad!

Most of the feedback was great, but the anatomy isn't that bad. He does have a sixpack, not an eightpack, I found that insulting. I did use tonnes of reference material for the anatomy and the back muscles are far bigger than the torso muscles. I can choose to model some ribs if I choose to, its only a few extra polygons. As for the arms, hold out your arm and you will notice that the shoulder muscles are accurate in the model.

I realise I should have used quads instead of triangles. Its something I rectified in my latest model

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Original post by SinisterUrge
My bad!

Most of the feedback was great, but the anatomy isn't that bad. He does have a sixpack, not an eightpack, I found that insulting. I did use tonnes of reference material for the anatomy and the back muscles are far bigger than the torso muscles. I can choose to model some ribs if I choose to, its only a few extra polygons. As for the arms, hold out your arm and you will notice that the shoulder muscles are accurate in the model.

I realise I should have used quads instead of triangles. Its something I rectified in my latest model

yeah, you're right he does have a sixpack. however the main critiques for the horseman is that his hair is wasting a ton of polys, and the entire mesh is too high poly for the amoutn fo detail you have, so you could easily low the poly coutn and have it look nearly the same i think. and your t-rex model isn't bad, (alot of wasted polys though), but i say if you make him bend forward a bit his center of gravity will be fine.
and calling him a wanker (si that uk insult?) is not veyr nice, he was only trying to give you the advice you asked for.

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Original post by SinisterUrge
Your a wanker!

If I wanted "expert" feedback I'll go to a fellow professional, not an amateur know it all!

Please don't insult professionals by claiming to be their peer.

All your models are anatomically incorrect (anatomy, by the way, does not refer solely to the presence of body parts, but also to their relationship to each other - position, proportion, topology), with proportion being your weakest point. Your wolf is blocky, lacking articulation and nuance (though it's excellent for low-res, far-distance work).

A particular problem with your non-humanoids is inaccurate skeletal structure. The T-Rex's foot, for instance, lacks the clear articulation of the foot pad (the middle and rear portions of the foot of a tyrannosaurus rex, according to paeleontological data, will never intentionally touch the ground while standing/walking/running, so the bone structure reflects this to minimize load/stress; I suggest visiting a natural history museum and studying a dinosaur skeleton, if possible). The horse's legs are perfectly vertical, with no indication of the direction in which they flex when running (viewed from the fore, they should be slightly concave, with staggered angular joints and then a sharp reflex angle for the foreleg-hoof joint).

Ditto your wolf, which lacks hackles, haunches, legs (just like the horse, or a dog for easier observation). Accurately laying out polygons and textures comes second to accurately observing the nature of the thing you wish to model.

Good luck.

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PLEASE don't call yourself a professional. I'm doing work at a far higher level than you on my thesis, and don't consider myself a professional. Freelancing for an indy game is not considered industry work.
But even more unprofessional than your work is your behaviour. You asked for critique of your models, then when you didn't get praise, you wigged out. Its rare that while your learning more skilled people will be impressed by your actual piece, there are always things to fix and make better in everyone's work. You can impress them, though, by making progress and listening to advice.

As for my advice, you seem to have taken issue with some of it:
>>He does have a sixpack, not an eightpack, I found that insulting.
No, it looks like he has an 8-pack, which begins too close to his pectorals and ends incorrectly too high up. I don't care what you say he has, it only matters what it looks like he has, and it looks like he has an extra set of abdominal muscles.
>>I did use tonnes of reference material for the anatomy and the back muscles are far bigger than the torso muscles.
I'd love to see your reference material that has a hulking beast-like torso physique, but such wimpy arms. I didn't say huge back muscles are impossible, they are, but a) they are not located correctly, and b) they are ophaned, without related muscles and muscle groups similarly bulky. The character overall looks pretty slim, except for his massve chest and back.
>>I can choose to model some ribs if I choose to, its only a few extra polygons.
And you can choose to model nostrils as well. And knuckles too. But all of them will make sure you don't get a call-back from a game studio. You don't seem to have a comprehension of efficiency yet, which is integral to game modelling. And I'm telling you, for efficiency, you don't model ribs.
>>As for the arms, hold out your arm and you will notice that the shoulder muscles are accurate in the model.
No. Your pectorals flow UNDER your deltoids. Right now they look like they merge together. This also may be due to his unusually skinny arms, paired with his barrel-chest and incorrect collar-bones.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
ask yourself, 'do i want to become better, make things as accurate as i possibly can'? if so then you you should consider becomming crazy, like living only for your dream and nothing else. if your just a hobbyist having fun, then there is no need to compete with yourself or frsutrate over this (not saying you are), just keep modleing funny looking models becasue they arnt ugly or hediuoes, they just dont look right

they do look good for a homemade mmorp

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Guest Anonymous Poster
try using alpha mapped planes for the hair instead of geometry, this will reduce your poly count drasticlly. And if you want to have details such as ribs and knucles and such, use them in a normal map rather than as geometry. It will give you the subtle details without using up your polycount.

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1) grow a thicker skin, the no-bullshit feedbacks are the most valuable. For artists ego boost you should go to deviantart or the likes.
2) ask for feedback only if you want it

I´d agree with most of what Professor420 said, there are some flaws but it´s pretty decent work. I´d work on the anatomy first and then the sloppy meshes. You should also be able to cut down the polycount further by spending some time on a more detailed texture (flat skin tone, etc.).

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Hello,

I'm not an professional artist by trade- but even I notice several things that could be improved upon in each of these demos. While the foundation is good and strong- now you need to do the fine polish to get these samples to that next level.

Another thing you need to work on is your attitude. Judging by your behavior, you're the type of person that asks for feedback and then acts very rude because the feedback wasn't completely in awe of your work.

If you are wanting to do this professionally, then you are going to have to get used to dealing with game producers that don't like certain aspects of your work and want them changed. If you respond to them the way you did on here- you'll find yourself out of a job very quickly.

I've written music for 15 games, and find myself redrafting my pieces often to better suit the game. I don't get mad about it- I look at it as an opportunity to make my music the perfect fit for a game. Maybe you should take on the same attitude. I think you'll find that people will respect you more, and you'll get more work.

Currently you're just showing how immature and inexperienced you are.

Nathan Madsen

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Quote:
Original post by SinisterUrge
Your a wanker!

If I wanted "expert" feedback I'll go to a fellow professional, not an amateur know it all!


I was going to give my oppions and advice, but you can go screw yourself if that's going to be your response to constructive criticism. Grow up.

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What's an oppion? :P

Take it easy, I was just upset that day and seeing my work ripped apart was too much for me to take. I'm human just like PhilMorton

@nsmadsen: Great advice! You understand how personal it is when someone hates your work.

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SinisterUrge- Glad you liked my advice. I didn't think Professor420 ever stated that he hated your work. I only scanned what he had to say...but never saw anything about hating it. He just has comments to give that would make your artwork better. He even gives you some praise.

You just really over reacted....which is silly because you asked for comments from others on your work. For me personally, the best experiences (the ones I've grown the most from) were the ones where somebody didn't like my work. I had to go in...take an honest look at what was good and bad and try and reshape things. During my college and graduate degrees, my profs would rip me a new one during my music lessons. It would piss me off, or depress me...but in the end I'm much better having gone through that. If everyone had told me how wonderful I was all of the time- I wouldn't be as development musically.

Think of boot camp. Those drill instructors make guys, much tougher than me, cry. Why? Just for fun...well, maybe! :) But mainly to build them into something stronger than they were before.

Also- you come off pretty smug in some of your posts, for example:
"That's the polygon count I was asked to use concerning the wolf and yes, it looks perfect when animated with deformation no being an issue."

I'm a good composer and musician- but I never tell anyone that one of my pieces are perfect. I find that opens the door to brutal (and often correct) criticism. Don't go around saying your work is perfect- especially when you're not God's gift to art in games. Once you have 100 game credits (most of which have been global best sellers) THEN you can make outrageous claims like your work is perfect. Until then, stay humble. People will like you better.

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Original post by SinisterUrge
What's an oppion? :P
This from someone who said "Your a wanker" ... [lol]
Quote:
Take it easy, I was just upset that day and seeing my work ripped apart was too much for me to take. I'm human just like PhilMorton

@nsmadsen: Great advice! You understand how personal it is when someone hates your work.
But I kid, I kid. The trick is to make it not be so personal. Yeah, it's certainly not easy - especially when the piece is something that truly is a great accomplishment for you, and then someone comes along and tells you what's wrong with it. I just separate my feelings for my accomplishment (which I stay happy about!) and my feelings for the criticism (which I usually recognize is correct and much needed).

That said, I've gotten a lot of good advice from this thread regarding my own attempts at modeling. Thanks, guys!

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"Take it easy, I was just upset that day and seeing my work ripped apart was too much for me to take. I'm human just like PhilMorton
@nsmadsen: Great advice! You understand how personal it is when someone hates your work."

I hope you don't pursue a career in art, if that is your attitude. Why is it personal when someone critiques your work (constructively, may I add). Escpecially when you ask for it. Your learning process as an artist will be filled with more criticization than you thought humanly possible, and the more you get generally the more your work improves, and if you get alot that's almost always a good thing, because it means you have put enough effort in to get something worthy of critique.
I still don't see why you take it personally (and note that nsmadsen said he DOESNT take it personally when his work is ripped apart). If you feel insulted, you're going to a) get defensive, and b) defending yourself, which means you won't be able to a)actually see whats wrong with you work, and b)fix your work. The whiny bratty eccentric artist is a poor cliche/stereotype, from pseudo-sophisticated industries like fashion and from the large amount of whiny bratty kids that make up art school students (and college students in general). A good artist will gladly accept very heavy criticism, and take it neutrally, and then implement it, or at least try it.

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Original post by SinisterUrge
Ok guys, feedback please!







That's the polygon count I was asked to use concerning the wolf and yes, it looks perfect when animated with deformation no being an issue.

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