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A little help with 3DS Max skinning

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Started by Deceptacon July 19, 2006 09:36 AM

28 comments, last by Professor420 17 years, 8 months ago

Deceptacon

150

Author

July 19, 2006 12:22 PM

Quote:Original post by Jarrod1937
Quote:Original post by Deceptacon
Quote:Original post by Jarrod1937
just be glad you don't have to rig a model for a game engine that only allows 100% wieghting...

Yeah, I don't think you can get away with that on models with more than about 100 polys :p
Anyway, I'm still trying to get this looking good.........

well, i'll have to try, either that or complain to my programmer that is not going fly.
i just joined the project and his engine is kind fo outdated (no ps, vertex lighting, no normal mapping...etc) yet he wants good graphics... which is kind of hard to do with those limitations.

Wow, sorry! I didn't realise you were actually in that situation. pixel shaders and bump mapping are basically a must for any new game to compete graphically. I don't even have a finished engine yet, a problem with being on such a small team, but it will support everything I need.

Professor420

496

July 19, 2006 03:49 PM

Hey, I worked on Fourth Age Total War, a major RTW mod for a year, and did dozens of models and textures, and hundreds of LoDs and bindings. I was LUCKY if the unit was unique enough to warrant more than 700 polygons, and there were no partial bone weights. And one could still make damn good looking units. And it looks even better with 10,000 of them fighting onscreen.

-------------www.robg3d.com

Deceptacon

150

Author

July 20, 2006 02:07 AM

Quote:Original post by Professor420
Hey, I worked on Fourth Age Total War, a major RTW mod for a year, and did dozens of models and textures, and hundreds of LoDs and bindings. I was LUCKY if the unit was unique enough to warrant more than 700 polygons, and there were no partial bone weights. And one could still make damn good looking units. And it looks even better with 10,000 of them fighting onscreen.

I guess those characters wouldn't be soon too close up. Still, you must be good to get good results with no weighting. In the style/genre of game I'm making (with in-game cut-scenes too) I couldn't get away with it. Luckily I'm getting a bit more experience with using Skin now, so my results are getting better already.

AnonymousPosterChild

168

July 20, 2006 02:20 AM

Quote:Original post by Deceptacon
Quote:Original post by Professor420
Hey, I worked on Fourth Age Total War, a major RTW mod for a year, and did dozens of models and textures, and hundreds of LoDs and bindings. I was LUCKY if the unit was unique enough to warrant more than 700 polygons, and there were no partial bone weights. And one could still make damn good looking units. And it looks even better with 10,000 of them fighting onscreen.

I guess those characters wouldn't be soon too close up. Still, you must be good to get good results with no weighting. In the style/genre of game I'm making (with in-game cut-scenes too) I couldn't get away with it. Luckily I'm getting a bit more experience with using Skin now, so my results are getting better already.

Umm... okay. Thats enough out of you.

First off, next gen games AREN'T using pure poly pushing power. Nor will they. For the most part, they will probably be using middle-range poly counts with advanced shaders. Now, I can understand, say, using a really high detail model to generate a normal map, or something similar to that. What you are doing is... pretty much insane.

With love, AnonymousPosterChild

Professor420

496

July 20, 2006 06:51 AM

^^ Agreed. You can get much better results with an 8k character and higher-res textures and better shaders than a 15k character that uses the same processing power. Even on a very hi-res character, much of that is used in the face, so it deforms correctly (see HL2 Alyx with 4k poly head).

After spending a few hours binding a character yesterday, I'd give anything to go back to those 1-weight 2 minute skinjobs of low-res.

-------------www.robg3d.com

Deceptacon

150

Author

July 20, 2006 09:39 AM

You guys are right, but my game won't be completed for years yet, and currently games aren't pushing limits. I've had to redo my character twice already because of the poly count, and this time I'm splashing out. Nothing else in the game is anywhere near as excessive. All characters have parts where they will be in really close up shots (on sections with literally just a picture background). This is for the ultra high detail version. I am going to create LOD from them for other sections of the game.

btw, I just checked, and the character is actually 10,000 tris (with 5000 of those in the head), and thanks to your advice, I'm cutting that way down (most of the detail was around the joints, and isn't working). Thanks to your advice (and thanks to a few vidoe tutorials I got) I realised I can severely cut that down without any drop in apparent quality at any level (in fact, it looks a lot better). In effect, you've answered my question of how to skin a hi-poly character - make him lower poly :P

[Edited by - Deceptacon on July 20, 2006 10:39:53 AM]

AnonymousPosterChild

168

July 20, 2006 01:13 PM

Quote:Original post by Deceptacon
You guys are right, but my game won't be completed for years yet, and currently games aren't pushing limits. I've had to redo my character twice already because of the poly count, and this time I'm splashing out. Nothing else in the game is anywhere near as excessive. All characters have parts where they will be in really close up shots (on sections with literally just a picture background). This is for the ultra high detail version. I am going to create LOD from them for other sections of the game.

btw, I just checked, and the character is actually 10,000 tris (with 5000 of those in the head), and thanks to your advice, I'm cutting that way down (most of the detail was around the joints, and isn't working). Thanks to your advice (and thanks to a few vidoe tutorials I got) I realised I can severely cut that down without any drop in apparent quality at any level (in fact, it looks a lot better). In effect, you've answered my question of how to skin a hi-poly character - make him lower poly :P

Uhh... half your polycount comes from the head? Well, you either:
A) Put loads of superflous detail in the head that even a basic texturing could solve.
B) Have crippling detail shortages everywhere else.

Here's the trick about 99% of all games:

You spend most of the time looking at the REAR of the character. You have to stop and think when you're making game models. This isnt something where you can see every little detail possible all the time. Not only that, but there are ways OTHER than increasing the poly count to decrease the amount of noticable polygons. There is tons of tech in this field you seem to be outright ignoring.

With love, AnonymousPosterChild

Deceptacon

150

Author

July 20, 2006 03:28 PM

Quote:Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
Quote:Original post by Deceptacon
You guys are right, but my game won't be completed for years yet, and currently games aren't pushing limits. I've had to redo my character twice already because of the poly count, and this time I'm splashing out. Nothing else in the game is anywhere near as excessive. All characters have parts where they will be in really close up shots (on sections with literally just a picture background). This is for the ultra high detail version. I am going to create LOD from them for other sections of the game.

btw, I just checked, and the character is actually 10,000 tris (with 5000 of those in the head), and thanks to your advice, I'm cutting that way down (most of the detail was around the joints, and isn't working). Thanks to your advice (and thanks to a few vidoe tutorials I got) I realised I can severely cut that down without any drop in apparent quality at any level (in fact, it looks a lot better). In effect, you've answered my question of how to skin a hi-poly character - make him lower poly :P

Uhh... half your polycount comes from the head? Well, you either:
A) Put loads of superflous detail in the head that even a basic texturing could solve.
B) Have crippling detail shortages everywhere else.

Here's the trick about 99% of all games:

You spend most of the time looking at the REAR of the character. You have to stop and think when you're making game models. This isnt something where you can see every little detail possible all the time. Not only that, but there are ways OTHER than increasing the poly count to decrease the amount of noticable polygons. There is tons of tech in this field you seem to be outright ignoring.

Well actually, if you knew anything about the game, you'd know that the character is constantly seen from every angle in my game (definitely not the rear). And he isn't skimped anywhere else, and texturing can't solve the issues, because texture wise, he is quite minimal (think Sonic the Hedgehog). His details are all justified, and texturing can only get around a few of them, and I it looks nowhere near as good. My game isn't your standard 3rd person type deal, so please don't judge my decisions based on the norm of what people are making.

red_produkt

199

July 20, 2006 04:00 PM

I'm making a darts game at work and a large chunk of the polygons are in the faces. Thats because the camera is always focused on the upper torso and since a lot of money was spent on licensing players, faces have to be smooth and detailed.

Jarrod1937

523

July 20, 2006 04:12 PM

Quote:Original post by Deceptacon
Quote:Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
Quote:Original post by Deceptacon
You guys are right, but my game won't be completed for years yet, and currently games aren't pushing limits. I've had to redo my character twice already because of the poly count, and this time I'm splashing out. Nothing else in the game is anywhere near as excessive. All characters have parts where they will be in really close up shots (on sections with literally just a picture background). This is for the ultra high detail version. I am going to create LOD from them for other sections of the game.

btw, I just checked, and the character is actually 10,000 tris (with 5000 of those in the head), and thanks to your advice, I'm cutting that way down (most of the detail was around the joints, and isn't working). Thanks to your advice (and thanks to a few vidoe tutorials I got) I realised I can severely cut that down without any drop in apparent quality at any level (in fact, it looks a lot better). In effect, you've answered my question of how to skin a hi-poly character - make him lower poly :P

Uhh... half your polycount comes from the head? Well, you either:
A) Put loads of superflous detail in the head that even a basic texturing could solve.
B) Have crippling detail shortages everywhere else.

Here's the trick about 99% of all games:

You spend most of the time looking at the REAR of the character. You have to stop and think when you're making game models. This isnt something where you can see every little detail possible all the time. Not only that, but there are ways OTHER than increasing the poly count to decrease the amount of noticable polygons. There is tons of tech in this field you seem to be outright ignoring.

Well actually, if you knew anything about the game, you'd know that the character is constantly seen from every angle in my game (definitely not the rear). And he isn't skimped anywhere else, and texturing can't solve the issues, because texture wise, he is quite minimal (think Sonic the Hedgehog). His details are all justified, and texturing can only get around a few of them, and I it looks nowhere near as good. My game isn't your standard 3rd person type deal, so please don't judge my decisions based on the norm of what people are making.

could we get a screenshot of your model?

-------------------------Only a fool claims himself an expert

A little help with 3DS Max skinning

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