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Replacing a healthbar

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So what would happen if you replaced the common health bar in a FP game? Let's say in the top left corner you have a health bar. Now i'm wondering if any bgame has implemented a Food bar and/or an Energy bar. The Food bar is like your character's survival health and your energy is like your battle health. See now would you agree that this would be a good add-on replacing the health bar? I was also thinking about a popularity bar, except i was thinking of all of these things along the line of a mercenary game. So instead of popularity you can have Prisoners or possibly "Innocents". And this will get you more known in a mercenary society. I just thought that these would be a interesting idea to put into a game.

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It has been done before. Shadowrun for the Sega Genesis included two combat damage bars. One for bashing wounds and one for piercing wounds.

I personally like it. The more the merrier. Well, up to about 3 or 4 [lol]

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Quote:
Original post by Professor420
What about eliminating the bars entirely?


The Getaway

No HUD whatsoever.

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I think Oblivion had no healthbar.

If your damaged you may hear your heart bumping louder and everything gets a red touch.


I usually like better looking healthbars which fit into the GUI, like Diablo did it. A bubble full of red water. Its the same but it does not look that boring...

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Yeah i agree with you Trina because in Diablo it wasn't like random health bar at the top of the screen.

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Quote:
Original post by Timus
The Getaway

No HUD whatsoever.


I meant more than eliminating the HUD or UI. I meant eliminating the entire concept of HP and health bar. In Getaway, and CoD2, etc., there is still a 'health bar,' but its just in a different form of expression. The screen turns red, the character is panting, etc. How about a system like Assassin's Creed, where if the character is hit he dies... his 'health bar' has been replaced by a dodge chance, and as you get more fatigued your chance of getting hit goes up? I've designed a similar system for the game I'm working on, where the type of weapon, type of armour, condition, fatigue, and strength all combine into a hit/kill or hit/resisted situation. You can't take the math or statistics out of the 'health' issue, but I think a fresh concept of 'health' is desperately needed, not just swapping it out for a red bubble or changing the name.

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Quote:
Original post by Professor420
Quote:
Original post by Timus
The Getaway

No HUD whatsoever.


I meant more than eliminating the HUD or UI. I meant eliminating the entire concept of HP and health bar. In Getaway, and CoD2, etc., there is still a 'health bar,' but its just in a different form of expression. The screen turns red, the character is panting, etc. How about a system like Assassin's Creed, where if the character is hit he dies... his 'health bar' has been replaced by a dodge chance, and as you get more fatigued your chance of getting hit goes up? I've designed a similar system for the game I'm working on, where the type of weapon, type of armour, condition, fatigue, and strength all combine into a hit/kill or hit/resisted situation. You can't take the math or statistics out of the 'health' issue, but I think a fresh concept of 'health' is desperately needed, not just swapping it out for a red bubble or changing the name.


well, you still need some way of deciding "Character dead? Y/N?" or you don't have much of a game.

However, things that would work nicely is to have several healthbars. You don't die because someone had poked you 10000 times with a tack on your foot, but you're not going to be walking easily. Use a system that works differently. Rather than subtracting a number from a pool, you 'add' effects as you take damage. Bullet to the foot? You're not going to be running fast. 8pounder shot to the knee? You are crawling on the floor, slowly bleeding out.

Keep a blood level, measure blood loss rate for wounds and slowly subtract that from your character's blood supply. As it gets low they're going to get a little loopy and weaker. They're going to really suck at attacking, and likely die if they are gushing blood for too long.

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MGS3 has a hunger bar. Tho they still uses a hp bar, you will perform better if you're full.

Haunting Grounds doesnt have a health bar, you have some invisible panic bar and stamina bar instead. You can only die from receiving :
-1 hit kill, like a fatal stab from a glass shard.
-when you are panic to the max, you character will fall down and unable to move, receiving any damage in this stage kills you.

Ico doesnt have a hp bar either. You game over by either :
-falling from high ground
-the one you're supposed to protect is kidnapped and you're unable to save her immediately.
-Petrified by the queen in the final battle. (1 hit kill)

Are these what you meant by no hp bar?

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Now that gfx are so advanced, health bars could be replaced by a nice graphic representation.

"Oh, look at that bleeding hole, that can't be good..."

or the classic

"Hum, I seem to be missing a piece of my ear. Touché."

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The combat rules we developed for Bloodspear have several different 'pools' of hitpoints depending on the entity involved, and a hit table associated with that entity. They're very similar to many location-based hitpoint schemes (Runequest, Rifts/Palladium, optional rules in AD&D).

For example, a human has 6 hit locations - head/neck, torso, arms, legs. Each has its own number of hitpoints (a factor of the Constitution stat of the entity), and the entity itself has an overall pool of hitpoints, similar in purpose to the 'blood level' Talroth mentioned.

Damage and destruction of a location can have varying effects- both on stats and the animations the entity can do - so if you hurt a leg, they limp, if you break it or remove it they crawl, dragging the leg or bloody stump behind them.

Having a health bar (or collection of them) isn't intuitive, nor is having to look at a stats page to determine how many points in each location you have left, and to be honest, I disagree with letting people know *exactly* how much more punishment they can take.

Through animation selection and text description we present the following states: healthy, 'hurt' (below 50%), 'broken' (below zero), 'missing' (below -100%).

Healing severe damage is a 'back to town' job - I really like the concept of adventurers crawling back to town, carrying their wounded in a cart or whatever and getting fixed up. Plus there's the added incentive for grouping in a system like this - who wants to be stuck in a wolf-infested forest with a broken leg?

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Fight Night also has no health bar.

Quote:
Haunting Grounds doesnt have a health bar, you have some invisible panic bar and stamina bar instead. You can only die from receiving :
-1 hit kill, like a fatal stab from a glass shard.
-when you are panic to the max, you character will fall down and unable to move, receiving any damage in this stage kills you.
I need to play that [looksaround]. Here I thought we were being all creative with our Paranoia thing.

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altering the health bar to another concept IMO could make the game more organically realistic. Perhaps as characters take damage all of their other skills are affected and the screen may start going blurry. In real life if someone got shot in the arm then unless theyv been pumped wih alot of hardcore drugs theyre use of that arm will probably be affected

things like hunger and thirst have been used alot and arnt very fun though. It becomes more of a pain to make your characters eat or drink every 5 minutes

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See, but the realism of eating and drinking. Maybe a random of when you need to between every 20-30 mins you play. The realism of no healthbar but a body chart and yhow theyve been affected is good. Ive seen that system on some mech games on PS, where it goes to yellow,red, and different colords for different stages.

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Quote:
What about eliminating the bars entirely?


I've been thinking of using depth of field effects as a replacement for a healthbar.
As your health decreases, what's far in the background starts to blur until you're almost dead and you can barely see in front of you.
Possibly also with the inclusion of motion blur effects as you get very low on health.

Not only is it a more immersive way to do health but should promote the gaining of healthpacks/etc for more reasons than just health and boosts the need for medic classes/skills.

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In a Pen and Paper RPG I have been designing I am using several "Health" bars. Each bar represents a type of damage (Stun, Physical, Trauma, Shock and Leathal).

Stun damage is for attacks that might knock you unconcious.
Physical damage is for attacks that do physical damage like being hit with a club, etc.
Trauma damage is for attacks that do severe physical damge (like being hit with a sword, breaking bones, etc).
Shock is damage that exceeds the bodies ability to handle it (ie in shows like ER they talk about patients going into shock).
Leathal damage is the amount of damage the character can take before being killed.

Each attack might do more than one type of damage. If a damage type is reduced to 0 from taking damage in it, then the damage is applied to the next damage type on the list (So if stun damage is at 0 then the damage rolls over to the Physical Damage bar), and if that is full it is then aplied to the next, and so on. If the Leathal Damage is reduced to 0 then the character is dead (and is usually severely disabled due to penalties by that stage anyway).

Each Category also has penatiles associated with it what it reaches the 50% and the 0% marks. When the category is reduce to 50% or below then the 50% mark penalties are applied. If it reaches 0% then the 0% mark is also applied.

This system allows a character to be disabled rather than just killed as an outcome of a combat.

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Regarding no HUD:
This is entirely possible based on the graphical feedback you give the player.

Regarding different types of damage/feedback:
Many pen and paper rpgs have systems like these, including a system failure mechanic. If a certain amount of damage is taken by one organ or limb, all of your body's systems could fail.

If you give the player too many bars, its going to be info overload and not only will you be basically telling the same player the same info too much, but it will just be a bother to mess with. I mean a stamina bar, a health bar for each of 5 locations, a sanity bar, a food bar, a sexual impulses bar... dont give them more than they need. RPGs have stats for a reason.

I think it could all be done with animations, sounds, and loss of ability in senses and abilities.

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My system could be used without the traditional "Bar". Instead, you could have a "paper doll" (like what is used in many inventory screens) and have a section of the body coloured in for a particular type of damage.

So for my system you might use the torso of the paper doll to indicate Shock damage, The Head for Stun damage, Limbs for Physical damage and and Aura for Leathal Damage.

If that section of the paper doll starts green and becomes progrssivly more red as damage is done, this will give the player good visual feedback on the status of the character without having a screen cluttered by abstract bars.

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One idea is to have several bars; none of which is visible until damage is taking in that category. Categories include everything which can lead to unconciousness and death:

* Blood loss - A paper cut will make you lose 1% blood, a severed hand will make you lose 10% + 2% per second or something... will heal (slowly) over time
* Tissue damage - from crushing weapons etc. includes contusions and bruises. will heal over time
* Fractures - will NOT heal over time, medical attention is needed
* Oxygen - being deprived of oxygen makes you lose 1% per second - will heal (quickly) over time
* Shock/Stun - Bashed over the head may add 10% to 100% of shock damage; should probably only lead to unconciousness tho - will heal (fairly quickly) over time
* Nerve damage - poison etc. - will heal slowly over time
* Organ failure/internal bleeding - failing organs should probably give damage over time; will NOT heal over time, medical attention is needed
* Cerebral hemorrhage, very bad for you

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Still sounds like waaaay too much stuff to have on screen. I supose you could make tiny bars and keep them in the corner.

"none of which is visible until damage is taking in that category"
Some of them will always have a bit of damage.

Could be interesting...I just think its overload.

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Robinson's requiem was a "sort of" FPS. It was more a survival simulator. You were the survivor of a spaceship crash and had to build spears and bows, hunt your food, cook it, etc... It was well-known for its very complex damage system. In fact it looked more like a mediacl simulation : you could see your character's body and read several information about blood pressure, temperature, etc... you could die of a dozen diseases, had a wide range of medical items (if you could find them) you could repair bones, even cut a member ( an interesting feat being cutting both of your arm without any help :-) )

It didn't make it a good game, there were quite a few flaws IMHO. But if you want to see a complex health system, you could give it a go. It is abandonware by now.

A good reason to put no healthbar and a complex medical simulation would be, in my opinion, to force the player to stop, hide, find a shelter, drop the gun and examine his/her status, make the necessary healing and then go back in battle. It is clearly inadequate for a fast-paced Quake3-like game, but for an anxiety-driven, atmosphere-heavy FPS (WWII simulator anyone ?) it could add quite a bit of immersion.

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