# Are the Pseudo Languages of any worth ??

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Hi folks, like the title says I'm trying to answer the question, is there any benifits to using a pseudo language like Torque, or Blitz. I just spent a dissapointing 2 weeks with DarkBasic, a total waste of time and energy, and was wondering if the others were any better. Should I just dive strait into C and C+, and screw the pseudo code. Im not looking to become a game programmer, Im into it for the fun, Ive always been interested in how programs work, and have some experience with the old MSBasic. Just seems overwhelming all the game engines, and languages, so I thought I might as well ask, is there any benifits to them, or is it just a case of trying to make somthing that is difficult, simple ? Ussually if that is the case, something gets sacrificed in the quest for simplicity ? Thanks for any opinions thoughts, etc.. Grais.

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Well, if you are looking for a step up from those languages, but not quite ready to take the leap into C++ (or even Java or C#), many people on these boards would highly recommend Python. To make games, you can simply use the pygame library. The results are immediate, since it is an interpreted language, which is great for beginners who want instant feedback. Plus, you can get to know a language fairly quickly that has a lot of advanced features that you can bring over to C/C++/Java/C# later. Also, since you are just learning, it will be a long time before you "outgrow" pygame and its capabilities. By the time you do, you will be fully ready to tackle C++ and other more 'complicated' languages (note how 'complicated' is quoted -- many would argue on this point).

Another option would by Ruby and some of its SDL bindings, though pygame is so well developed that I would probably stick with Python.

Since you said that you have no real intention of making a living out of programming, there is no real point in learning C++, or anything like that. A good interpreted language like Python will do the trick, and you should be soaring with Pygame in no time.

Oh, by the by, last years 4E4 winner used GameMaker. They beat out all those people who were using homebrew and industry tested C++ engines because they had great gameplay. Just remember that.

Good luck!

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Blitz has kept up with the times better than DarkBasic but it's not as cost-effective as Python with PyGame and PyOpenGL. Sure Blitz3d is as fast as C and BlitzMax is probably easier to learn than C++, but Python is free and you can learn a lot from Python that may be less "frowned upon" than Basic simply becuase Basic has a lot of legacy capabilities that modern languages have quit using for the most part.

The main advantages of Basic and Python over C/C++ is that they are generally more portable unless you specifically use the standard libraries and either Allegro or SDL (used internally by PyGame) and OpenGL under C/C++. Another advantage of Python and Ruby over the others is that you can do a lot in only a few lines of code making the debugging easier and the development times shorter.

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Well I guess Im looking into Python, I allready have it installed on my machine, well parts of it anyway(a program I use3 OpenRPG, is written, or uses Python) .
Im open to any suggestions of learning resaources, any of that kind of thing.
Thanks for the advice.

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PyGame is a Python wrapper for SDL, although there is a Google Summer of Code effort to port it to ctypes (for PyPy) and enable it to do a whole lot more than just wrap SDL in a "Pythonic" manner.

Panda3D is a 3D engine written in Python and C++ that powers Disney's ToonTown Online.

Dive Into Python is a free online book that teaches Python, but assumes familiarity with programming. How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python (currently returning an access denied error message; weird...) teaches programming using Python.

There are many more resources, including documentation and the official Python language tutorial and reference, at the Python home page.

Good luck! [smile]

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I began programming in a class that basically taught psuedocode and python. Didn't learn anything interesting, but when I took C and C++ it made things a lot easier. That's probably because of python, not psuedocode though. Yeah..just go with C++. Everyone says it's easier to learn C first, but C is basically in C++ and no one uses C anymore.

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 I began programming in a class that basically taught psuedocode and python. Didn't learn anything interesting, but when I took C and C++ it made things a lot easier. That's probably because of python, not psuedocode though. Yeah..just go with C++. Everyone says it's easier to learn C first, but C is basically in C++ and no one uses C anymore.

1) It's easier to learn Python before C or C++ (and more beneficial).
2) C++ and C are different languages; assume otherwise at your peril.
3) Plenty of people still use C.

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Original post by jpetrie
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 I began programming in a class that basically taught psuedocode and python. Didn't learn anything interesting, but when I took C and C++ it made things a lot easier. That's probably because of python, not psuedocode though. Yeah..just go with C++. Everyone says it's easier to learn C first, but C is basically in C++ and no one uses C anymore.

1) It's easier to learn Python before C or C++ (and more beneficial).
2) C++ and C are different languages; assume otherwise at your peril.
3) Plenty of people still use C.

Just like people still use FORTRAN or Cobol. Just because the language is old or "replaced" doesn't mean it's still not in use.

C++ is also a whole nother language than C IMO. C++ supports OOP, among many things, while C does not.

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Quote:
 Just like people still use FORTRAN or Cobol.

Interesting. Do you happen to know any Operating Systems whose kernel are written in FORTRAN or COBOL? [smile]

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 I began programming in a class that basically taught psuedocode and python. Didn't learn anything interesting, but when I took C and C++ it made things a lot easier. That's probably because of python, not psuedocode though.

Wait, did I read this wrong or did you just say that learning C++ was a lot easier than Python? If that's so, then simply the proffessor of that class was a moron.

And btw, what the hell are Pseudo-Languages?

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Original post by mikeman
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 Just like people still use FORTRAN or Cobol.

Interesting. Do you happen to know any Operating Systems whose kernel are written in FORTRAN or COBOL? [smile]

Do you happen to know any operating systems whose kernels are written in Python? Oh, well I guess nobody should use Python then, because operating systems implementation is the ultimate test of whether a programming language is useful, right?

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 And btw, what the hell are Pseudo-Languages?

That's what happens when people try to come up with intellectual-sounding terms for things they don't know how to classify. [smile]

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0) There is no such term as "pseudo language". "Pseudocode" refers to stuff the programmers write that isn't actually intended to be understood directly by a computer, but simply illustrates some algorithm. All the languages you mention are real languages, except for C+, which does not exist, and Torque, which is not any kind of language but is instead an engine, which is basically a whole bunch of starter code that defines useful functions for a specific kind of game.

1) Programming is hard, and there's no getting around that. Helping you out any further than that rather depends on exactly why you felt your DarkBasic experience was "disappointing" and "a total waste of time".

2) That said, all flavours of BASIC generally get little respect from talented programmers; when used commercially, jobs using them seem to attract less-skilled programmers, and when used for hobbies, they often seem somehow insufficient (lacking in power or expressivity, or just not well supported in terms of libraries, engines etc.)

3) Have you tried Python?

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 Do you happen to know any operating systems whose kernels are written in Python? Oh, well I guess nobody should use Python then, because operating systems implementation is the ultimate test of whether a programming language is useful, right?

Hm, reading back what I wrote, I think I misunderstood what "Forsaken Incognito" said. I erroneously took the 'Just like people still use FORTRAN or Cobol' and 'old or replaced' as semi-sarcastic comments which meant that C is used just like FORTRAN or COBOL(that is, usually for academic purposes or maintaining old programs) and is as "abandoned", more or less for development of new software, as they are. I wanted to show that C is used in very important modern software right now, so it's not merely an old language used just like FORTRAN or COBOL. Not that languages that can't implement operating systems are not useful, for god's sakes! I'm writing this very post in a break I took from writing an RPG in Python!

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Zahlman I realise learning to code, or how to program is a duanting task, especially in this day and age, there is plethora(damn another one of them intelligent sounding words, doh....lol), a lot of languages, add to that all the utilities and tools one must learn to use....well lets just say I harbour no illusions that it will be easy. One thing in my favour is the huge resource center I have at my fingertips, the net is chock full of learning.
My dissapointment stemming from DarkBasicPro, essentially stems(srry) from the fact that it has bugs,I suppose this could be soley that is's changed, regardless things dont work as they . This is well documented, judging from the forums at TGC, people are always asking about the 'manual', but no responses? And it just seemed everything I came across for DBP all had syntax errors, the books, the tutorials, the posts on the forums, everything. Very few examp[les of code actually work, only the most up to date I guess. If you dont know how to program very well in the first place, it is makes it hard to tell where all the syntax errors, new commands, etc.. are to go.
So I thought rather than spend my time learning how to workaround the problems I would rather spend my time learning something that is more established, and well documented.
If DBP is to come out with a proper manual, I will buy it, but without it, or at the least, up to date reference material, the syntax in the help file is wrong, in many cases it seems(!!!), until they do that its unusable for me.
Thanks for all the links for Python, I actually have allready learned a bit of Python, so should be all right. Thanks all

PS ohhh yeah about Pseudo language, its just the first thing that came to mind when I thought up the title, sorry, no big thought went into it. I think I heard it somewhere else, but cant be sure actually....duh. Seemed like an allright fit at the time? I guess New User Friendly Basic Derivative languages would have been more apt..lol NUFB!(just kidding)

[Edited by - Graiskye on August 11, 2006 2:02:23 AM]

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When I started programming I went for Python and Delphi. Delphi was quite a cool way of learning programming as you could do nice stuff with the Borland compiler, however I'm not sure they are still distributing that for free.
The move to C++ was easier after having learned these other languages!

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Original post by mikeman
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 I began programming in a class that basically taught psuedocode and python. Didn't learn anything interesting, but when I took C and C++ it made things a lot easier. That's probably because of python, not psuedocode though.
Wait, did I read this wrong or did you just say that learning C++ was a lot easier than Python? If that's so, then simply the proffessor of that class was a moron.

I believe he was saying that he found C++ easier to learn because of what he'd learned with Python.

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 Original post by Forsaken IncognitoC++ supports OOP, among many things, while C does not.

Yes it does.

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Original post by superpig
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 Original post by Forsaken IncognitoC++ supports OOP, among many things, while C does not.

Yes it does.

Well not out of the box. It takes some manipulating to do so...

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I don't know about Cobol, but I do know that FORTRAN is still used extensively in aerospace technologies. At KU, at least, its highly recommended that all aerospace engineering majors know FORTRAN because they're going to end up using it because basically all of the programs that run satelites and planes was written in FORTRAN.

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Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
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Original post by superpig
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 Original post by Forsaken IncognitoC++ supports OOP, among many things, while C does not.

Yes it does.

Well not out of the box. It takes some manipulating to do so...

Not really. Look, it's polymorphism in C! (Pardon if this doesn't compile, but you get the idea...)

struct Foo{ (void)(*func1)(void); (void)(*func2)(void);};void baz(struct Foo *vt){ vt->func1();}void bar(void){ Foo a; Foo b; a.func1 = myFunc1; a.func2 = myFunc2; b.func1 = otherFunc1; b.func2 = otherFunc2; baz(&a); baz(&b);}

Now, probably what you intended with your statement is that C++ automates some of the drudgery of the mechanics of OOP, which is definitely true. However, that's definitely a different thing - you can do OOP in assembly, for example.

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im always upto date with DBP and its site, a few weeks ago they realised there 6.2 update in the trial version, you should go try that since its a whole diferent version than it was before.

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Try processing (free at http://www.processing.org).

Its a lite and more user friendly version of Java. Once you get used to it, you can easily jump into Java and C++.