Quote:Original post by makeshiftwings
The problem was that somewhere along the line, somebody decided it would be more "realistic" if when you died you actually died, with no way to respawn, and instead, you could just reload a game that you saved earlier. Now nearly every game in existence does it. It forces you to reload on death, which means you need to be saving every few seconds to play optimally.

+1

Reality blows; that's why we play video games.

I find as I get older, I get more impatient with games that force me through stupid things, infuriating checkpoints being one of them. Problems include:

- Checkpoint being immediately before an unskippable cutscene, and a rather difficult sequence afterwards before the next checkpoint. Example: Fighting Seymour on the mountain in FFX.

- After the checkpoint, there is a long series of menial tasks followed by a really tough part, like a long jump. A game that comes to mind first is Prince of Persia.

- The last checkpoint invokes a long loading screen, or there is some loading screen after the checkpoint but before the difficult sequence. My rule would be to always have the checkpoint after a loading sequence.

- Actually being in danger when the checkpoint is activated, such that no matter how many times you reload you will die. This is more of a problem for autosaving and ill-timed quicksaves though.

I also believe that save-whenever can be a blessing or a curse (aka SARS). I remember playing games where I'd quicksave literally every time I'd make some difficult jump in a level with dozens of difficult jumps. What this tells me, if I were a game designer, was that either the difficult sequence was simply too tough (bad level design), the controls for the game are bad (sensitive jumps and the like), or the game simply isn't fun enough to merit trying it over and over.

Gamespy had a pretty funny Daily Victim about a guy who had his left mouse button bound to quicksave and right mouse button bound to quickload.

I think that the best way to do it is the way Call of Duty did. Have checkpoints for people who want to challenge themselves and play the game "properly", without damaging their immersion by quicksaving every few seconds. Combine this with optional quicksaves for people who want them, or to guard against those times when a player doesn't like where you have placed your checkpoints (eg, a long way before a difficult part of the game), parts of the game that take a very long time (eg, the missions in CoD where you are guarding the bridge against tanks or defending the villa), or if the player wants to stop playing.

[Edited by - CIJolly on August 22, 2006 9:13:18 PM]

Practically speaking, the only reason I see big games use the idea of save points isn't actually for any lofty design goal. It boils down to: "crap, we left the save/load system until the end of development, what's the easiest thing to do?". Save points are technically simple because you can put them in specific places where the player is guaranteed to be between encounters. Therefore you don't need to save much, if any, world state, all you have to do is save player state.

Every game i've been on, everyone want's save-anywhere. 99% of the time, engineering says, "you can either have save anywhere or <insert key feature here>".

Save/Load systems are a _bitch_ to debug and always have tons and tons of problems. At the end of the day, save anywhere just ends up not being worth the sacrifice of some other feature so you get a lot of games with save points.

-me

Quote:Original post by trapdoor
I only read the first few posts so forgive me if this has been mentioned:

What about giving the best of both worlds between save anytime / tokens... and checkpoints.

1. Have the difficulty setting decide if you can save at any time or if you have a limitted number of saves per level / day (day being a game day in such as elder scrolls). But have the saves only as more like quicksaves and not true saves

2. True saves are at the start of a level or maybe checkpoints / major areas.

The true saves are the saves you can load up after you start the console or computer. But the quicksaves are only available while the game is playing. Once the game is turned off, all quicksaves are deleted. This allows people to save whenever so they don't repeat that annoying instance every time they die but only if they reach the next stage before they turn off the game. And you can have difficulty settings that allow for limited anytime saves appart from the true saves.

Then have a noob setting where all anytime saves are true saves.

I was thinking something along #1. Limited saves. Maybe something like a timer that spawns every time you save, so, while you can save anywhere, once you hit the save button, you cannot save for another 30 real life minutes or something.

I honestly despise checkpoints, as other people have mentioned some short comings. Another problem with checkpoints is when you get an important phone call or something, and have to leave ASAP, and don't want to leave the game running, but at the same time, don't want to restart the level.

The problem with your method trapdoor is that you cant turn the game off when real life beckons. If nothing else, you should always have a 'sleep' save mode which is basically like a "true" save, but is deleted when you load it up again.

Also, checkpoints are so easy to do, they should be included in every game, no matter what other system you use. Some people like not having to micromanage when you are saving, how many tokens you have left, or remembering to hit the quicksave button - checkpoints take saving off your mind, and are compatible with any other system you might have.

I also like the idea of the noob mode - if the player doesn't want to fight the designer, they ought to be able to play it the way they want to.

As far as checkpoints themselves go, (not worrying about if cp's are "good" or "bad") the next checkpoint should never be too far away, and there should always be a checkpoint after a difficult section. Sometimes it feels like the designer said to himself, "Hmm, this section was really difficult. Too bad we already had a checkpoint in the other room." It's not like there's any rule about having to space them out evenly, sheesh. Walking through a few empty hallways between fights, please save before the next one. Just finished a difficult section, please save. Worried about the "game saving..." message tipping off players that something big is around the corner? You don't necessarily need to tell the player that you are saving. If you save often enough they will trust you. If you have ever played out of this world, they used checkpoints and since they didn't tell you when it was saving it felt like one smooth experience (although later in the game they did suffer from cp's much too far apart).

Also, don't ever overwrite old checkpoint saves. It is fun to go back to specific parts of the game if you just want to show somebody something, or if you want to go back a few saves and try to do better.

I think my ideal save system would be (many) checkpoints/autosaves perfectly spaced (that don't overwrite each other), a few save anywhere 'tokens' and then the sleep save for when you need a break but aren't at a checkpoint. I also want to have some options at the beginning where I can choose to play on iron man mode, normal mode, and save anywhere.

I also really like games that have save anywhere but they have numerous autosaves as well. That way most of the time I dont worry about saving, but if I get through a section I absolutely refuse to play again, and it didnt save for me, I can save and be done with it.

If you don't trust yourself to place checkpoints perfectly (and you shouldn't, your idea of perfect save spots are always going to be different than many of your player's idea) please make sure its not the only save option.


***Just want to add that there is no one save system to rule them all, as with anything else. Above all, make sure your save system fits with the game. Respawn systems are great but dont work so well in linear games, checkpoints add tension but dont make much sense in non-linear ones. The save system should be transparent and tailored to the game, it should not be something the player has to worry about too much.