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Dire.Wolf

Windows XP

515 posts in this topic

I'm a systems engineer at an investment bank (yes MCSE)... EVERY single company I have worked for runs automated builds (unattended setups). These setups REQUIRE that all questions are answered in an ini file. We don't change that unless we have to. I work with servers so only install a few times a week but the desktop boys do it a dozen times a day. When rolling out a new OS to a department we have hundreds happening each weekend. I don't know how MS will expect this to work, and it wont.

I rebuild machines at 4am on a sunday morning if thats what the business requires, I'm on call 7*24. MS will have to be responsive on demand for those times as well with a very fast reponse time. I can't see this working for my company.

You know what that means? There will be a back door there somewhere. What about people like my mother in law with no modem who only uses the PC for the encyclopedia? There will be a back door and once there is a way around this system that 'way' will turn in to a little exe that you run on your i386 to 'patch' the install.

I'm not worried..

As for stability, I've mentioned this before here, a few months back when installing a Tivoli client on a server I noticed that it had racked up about 9000 hours in the idle thread, which means it could have been up for nearly a year.(NT4) My home machine has flipped a few times(2000) but normally flipps out when I'm debugging fullscreen opengl apps (pretty nasty thing to do anyway). In our server environment the most unstable element is the hardware drivers.

I'm happy so far but I WON'T be calling up MS at 4am on a sunday morning for a f**king licence key...

gimp-o


PS: I'd also like to not that I code using OpenGL and SDL. My game should work equally well on macos, beos, linux , win32 etc, etc. My income and career might depend on MS but my game will not. Does that say something?

Edited by - gimp on February 26, 2001 6:27:14 PM
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It''s funny, one of the worst responses you can give in an MCSE exam is to reboot the server. That''s a big no-no according to MS.
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Until NT4 SP5? or 6? you had to reboot the server just to change a friggin ip address!

...
quote:

Original post by Furby100
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post by Magmai Kai Holmlor
I thought BIOS stood for Built-In Operating System?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha ha! Who told you that load of rubbish? Everyone knows it is Basic Input/Output System! Ha ha! Magmai didn''t know!


The ''trend'' is to call it a built-in OS - it''s friggin flash upgradable, sometimes has a redundant backup, has a couple of transducers plugged in to monitor the hardware (thermalcouples & tachometers), auto-configures the IO ports & IRQs, detects the cpu type & even the required voltage supply, auto-finds harddrives & CDROMs & LS120 & & &... maybe someday you''ll just it on and a Java BIOS will just run Embedded devices that stomp characters on the screen from a rom and boot from one or maybe two sources, and require a pile of dop-switches & jumpers for configuration are basic IO.

...
quote:

If you are a developer and you use DirectX, you will eventually have to use Windows XP even if only as a test platform. That means you''ll suddenly have a greater monthly overhead because you are "renting" this software.


Well, odds are decent that you have an MSDN subsciption, and most the ''levels'' come with beta & release versions of the OS precisely for the purpose of testing (and non-other btw :p). So it won''t cost you any more as a developer, unless you previously tested on pirated copies... or bought full versions.

...
quote:

Yeah, I''ve seen Win2K do that, I think it is a bug with the active desktop (it goes away if I refresh it). I haven''t seen the rest of the errors you''re having though.


You have never seen WinBlows hang when shutting down!? It''s like a M$ version of groundhogs day ffs!

...
And M$ is not on the home-builders side. They have taken a number of steps to make it more difficult to build a PC & install Windows on it. After all, if you continually upgrade your PC, and don''t buy OEM, they don''t get more money for you to have two or more licenses of Windows. And the rumor is that Bill Gates is not the richest man on Earth anymore.

Magmai Kai Holmlor
- The disgruntled & disillusioned
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Actually, (for some unknown reason, it's better not to ask I decided) the copy of Win2K Prof. that I was given for Christmas is an OEM copy. When I called tech. support the Microsoft Lady went off when I read her the product ID. I didn't even know it was OEM until I read the ID . So, they refused to help me, and I eventually figured out that Win2K is suppossed to reboot on system error by default (and how to turn it off).

"Finger to spiritual emptiness underlying everything." -- How a C manual referred to a "pointer to void." --Things People Said
Resist Windows XP's Invasive Production Activation Technology!
http://www.gdarchive.net/druidgames/

Edited by - Null and Void on February 26, 2001 7:15:49 PM
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windows is a stable operating system. Generally video drivers or something else is the cause of problems. I have had win95 run for like three years without crashing ONCE. My win98 hasn''t crashed either except in three seperate cases which I identified and corrected (my video driver, which was not the right driver for my card, had a memory leak; adobe acrobat has a memory leak (but IE using acrobat doesn''t, not sure how that works); Age of Kings somehow locks up my cd drive) I never ever have a random crash. Ever. I though I did but I traced it to my video driver. The other two are programs that I choose to run.
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Anon, i think you hardly ever run applications on your windows os. Maybe its just idling away doing nothing but running SETI in the background? Or you''re probably just running MS WORD.

What I mean is to see how stable windows is, try running multiple applications at the same time and see how windows reacts to it.
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That means the Acrobat executable has an error, but the plugin (a seperate file, different code) does not.

~CGameProgrammer( );

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Microsoft''s move is toward uncrackable rentable applications. They are uncrackable because some of the code is going to be on hte server side . This is their so called ''web application'' idea. It''s not going to happen tommorrow, but this is their goal (see below).

Their transistion plans (like so many of their business plans) is sheer genious. They will offer WordXP in both rentable and non-rentable versions. I''m not sure if WordXP will have server side code. And of course, they are first going for the corporations, which are capable of using such a product.

Their ultimate goal seems to be completely custimized, rentable software with server side code. Let me paraphrase the example I read. Let''s say you want Excel, but you don''t need all those macros that come with it. So you choose the macros you need (and the number you pick changed the overall rental price). These macros are all server side, so the server can check if you have the rights to the particular macro or not (read ''web services'').

That is the foundation of the whole .NET framework. Obviously consumers are not ready for this, but MS has never been a shortsighted company. I think MS is scared of putting out a product that they cannot improve enough to entice sales of an upgraded version. Whether this will ever work remains to be seen. But remember one of the larger driving applications of PC sales (AOL) is both server side and rental.

As for the antitrust suit, forcing consumers that buy windows to also buy internet explorer was illegal (you think IE is free!?). They were told by the court to sell them seperatly, and MS basically said fuck no, we''ll do what we want.

Mike
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running IE, Windows Explorer, CodeWarrior and PaintShop Pro, and Notepad all at once sometimes, no bugs. The stability of windows varies greatly from computer to computer. Generally I''ve seen that once it gets a little unstable it quickly spirals out of control and becomes unusable, so that''s why I think there are so many who think it is unstable. Maybe like 20% have bad computers and so they speak up, while the rest of us are fine. Sure 20% is really horrible, but if you fall into that category just reinstall and carefully pick your drivers and don''t install whatever it was that made trouble in the first place. I''ve only had to reinstall once since maybe 96 when I first started using windows (the video driver issue) and other than that things have been fine.
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Your comment nearly made me spit soda all over my desk, Vetinari, although I doubt you meant it to be funny.

To reiterate 2 points I made earlier:

1) People, businesses especially, foreign interests most especially, are going to be really flipping unhappy about having to be connected to the internet simply to run Excel. You have 12 hours flying to Japan on a plane and think you can get some work done on a laptop? Heck no! M$ wants you to be connected to the internet! You live in most European countries which charge you per minute for all phone calls, even local ones to your isp? You''re screwed when you write that term paper that takes you six hours using Word which requires you to be connected to the net, would hate to have your phone bill. You will probably be first in line to buy the latest Corel, Adobe, etc office suite.

2) People will make emulators. People like, say, me. I helped write an Ultima Online emulator. It wasn''t hard at all, and our servers were actually more stable than the pay-to-play ones. You just have to put a listener on the socket and look at the data coming in, then set up a server to do the same thing without being on an official happy-joy M$ site. Macros? Dude, that''s VBScript. Only takes one person to download the macro and put it on a web page. People trade macros all the time, tho at the moment it happens to be legal. I can pretty much guarantee that it would take the emulator gods who have been developing their mad skillz for the past few years on games that actually have stuff to do on the server (like, say, store characters and make sure the players are following the game rules) will only need about 24 hours to make an emulator to replace the M$ server. Max.

Another point:
The M$ Excel connection site, heaven forbid, goes down, or goes under a DDOS attack. 2.5 million Excel users across the world cannot do their work. 2.5 million people call/e-mail M$ cussing them out. Welcome to hell, M$ tech support folk. It was bad enough when hotmail was down for days due to DDOS attack, and heck, that''s a free unguaranteed service.

AOL gets away with it? Not really. In AOL you are paying them to take care of things for you because, well, most likely you''re a complete idiot when it comes to web stuff. Do you honestly think people use AOL because of the applications? Heck no! They have to give away AIM to make their customers happy. People use AOL because it''s easy to use and it has bright colors and cute things, and most non-techies like things with bright colors and wouldn''t know their modem if you ripped it out and handed it to them. Plus, they HAVE to be connected to AOL, AOL is their isp. M$ is not my ISP. I would rather drop my computer out a window than make M$ my ISP, thanks. Final point: last I checked, all the spiffy AOL application stuff is totally free. You pay for their service as an ISP. Their application is sent to you whether you want it or not, on shiny, brightly colored CD''s that I personally think make really great coasters.

I''m not saying it''s a dumb idea from a marketing standpoint. I''m saying it''s a dumb idea from a purely technical, I''ve already gotten around this sort of thing in my spare time because I was bored and believe me, it''s not gonna work, standpoint.

-fel
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quote:
What really bugs me about Windows, at least 95, is that when you upgrade your computer, there is barely an improvement.
I installed 95 on my new computer (700 Athalon) but wanted to get the files from the old puter (PI 166). I switched them on at the same time, and the 700 took as much time as the 166, despite the fact that it has 4 times more RAM and more than 3 times the speed. WTF!


That is due to the speed of your harddrive dude, it was probably ata33 and fat16 which is quite slow. Harddrives are a huge bottleneck for computers, even with the new faster ones. Though I haven''t seen a SCSI 160 in action yet (my friend has one, gotta go see it sometime)

-arsenius
''after three days without programming, life becomes meaningless'' -The Tao of Programming
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Has anyone actually seen anything official has to how the system will ACTUALLY work? As far as I''ve seen nobody knows if you''ve got to be connected 24/7, if there will be any client-side timeouts or not, etc. Every seems to be ready to make an opinion really quickly about something they very little about...

Also, do you actually believe that Microsoft hasn''t thought about this? That they just decided to make a total shift in their software licensing w/o walking through every scenario they could think of?

Do you think Bill Gates would bet his $50 billion on something he didn''t think companies would like?

For me the month-by-month scenario will probably be more cost effective...instead of paying $300 for office, I''ll only pay $10/mo which will save me money when the next version of office comes out in 2 years. (those numbers were only examples.)


Epolevne
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Fel - I think you misunderstood me. I was soely saying it was a good idea from a marketting or business position. I also think it is a horrible idea from a technical standpoint. In case I didn''t make it clear enough from my last post (I was trying to be objective) I don''t like this move! .

As far as this is the direction they are taking their products, it''s true as far as I can tell. If you try to read any official .NET papers, nearly all you can find is rhetorical bullshit.

Code will be kept server side, like CGI or something. This is the move they are making, DOS attacks and airplane trips notwithstanding. Emulators may be available... Macros server side were only an example of how it may work. Obviously the details havn''t been worked out or we wouldn''t be discussing this right now. Most likely it would be much more than just macros; probably nothing easy to emulate.

AOL itself is the application I was referring to (I think you completely misunderstood this), not any online apps AOL may provide. I know too many people that bought a computer mainly to use AOL becuase it''s easy to use, brightly colored, advertises on TV, etc. You may get AOL for free, but inorder to use it, you need to pay a monthly fee. I wouldn''t be shocked if MS gave away any client side code needed for their ''web applications'' away for free, and forced a monthly fee to use. And use can use AOL''s software w/o using AOL as an ISP, and they give a discount on this (I know because this is what my dad does...don''t ask me why. He has a cable modem and still uses AOL through his ISP).


Mike
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Epolevne - Nothing ''official'' exists on exactly how .NET will work. Trust me, I have spent hours tring to figure it out, reading the complete buzzword bullshit on MS''s site (mabye they updated it w/ something readable, I havn''t checked in about a month).

When you do read it, however, you see the term ''web application'' used every other sentence (5$ to anyone who can tell me exactly what this means). No matter how you try to interpret ''web application'', it will requre a connection to the net to use.


Mike
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I''m not going to comment on your father because I veer away from insulting peoples'' family members. *wry smile* Nor do I know of any good support groups for that sort of thing.

I fail to see what it would be difficult to emulate. There are certain restrictions that occur due to the very nature of client/server software. One is size and speed, which places restrictions on the amount of encryption. Another is integrity of data, which is almost impossible to ensure unless you do constant server-side checking. If you''re writing an emulator for the server as well, then it''s all up to you, isn''t it. The only thing that I could even think of that might possibly work would be a constant exchange of software key information, which would cause some serious cranking on both sides as you would have to be generating keys pretty much constantly, and if you did get out of synch due to network problems, you would pretty much be screwed as your software comes to a screeching halt and refuses to work. Isn''t it bad enough that we get screeching-halt bluescreens and fatal exceptions now? Maybe those are just practice to make us used to it. Then again, most key-based encryption schemes like that could get around it by merely locking the time seed down and sending the same registration over and over again on both client and server side if it''s a two-way key check, or by simply pretending that whatever the software sent your emulator is fine if it''s only a one-way key check. In general, tho, I think most home users, and most commercial users that have to deal with travel, will suddenly come to the epiphany that M$ isn''t the only company out there making halfway-decent office products.

-fel
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double post - delete this please

Edited by - Vetinari on February 27, 2001 1:54:31 AM
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Update -
MS did update their .NET homepage:
http://www.microsoft.com/net/default.asp
with a pretty readable article ''The Simplest Way to Define .NET''
http://www.microsoft.com/net/defining.asp
Here''s a fun quote
quote:

Broadly stated, .NET is aimed at accelerating this next generation of distributed computing. There are three conditions that must be met in order to make the next generation of distributed computing a reality:

Everything needs to be a Web service, so that it can participate in the connected network. This applies to both applications and to resources like storage.

Web services must be easy to aggregate and integrate so that developers can quickly and efficiently create applications.

Users must have a simple and compelling experience working with Web services so that they will adopt the new applications and services.


Notice on the main page they have what .NET means for devolpers, IT Pros and Businesses, not home consumers (just like I said earlier, going after business first)

Now check ''What Microsoft''s .NET Vision Means for Businesses''
http://www.microsoft.com/business/vision/netvision.asp

If you read between the lines here, they describe nearly a dumb terminal connected to the internet with both code and data server side (''secure'' of course). Check it:
quote:

Their data will live securely on the Internet so that they can access it from their PCs at work and at home, from their cell phones or pagers, from their PDAs, and even from the combination pager/cell phone/PDA-PC device that''s on the horizon. Applications will be able to gracefully adapt the functionality they offer to the limitations and opportunities presented by the device with which the user is interacting. Applications will be able to act on a user''s behalf, based on a predefined set of preferences and directives.


Believe me yet? So here we find out why it will be difficult to emulate - they store nearly the whole excel program server side. In order to emulate, you''d have to emulate excell/word/etc. (and for within the ''limitations and opportunities presented by the device with which the user is interacting'').

Just keeps getting better and better all the time. They may be over-reaching here. I think it would be asking a lot from businesses to keep data and code server side, no matter how ''secure'' and ''accessable'' it may be.

Mike
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You know I don''t think that Microsoft would be that stupid. Think about it, why would you pay to not so you can''t use something. Then we have the issue of the OS being buggy. I''m inclined to believe what someone said earlier about MS leaving bugs in so you will have to buy upgrades. If any of you called the IRS last year with tax problems you probably got an answer that the systems were down a lot. Guess why? Well, Last year the IRS switched to WinNT4 last year. I was one of the "lucky" people to get a Win client. Our computers were down constantly. I have had to go a whole day without a computer. I would sit and play Nibble. (btw gov''t computer techs did not know that they had left Qbasic or the DOS commands on the computer. Just for those that still had faith in the US gov''t) While I sat there and read the QBasic Help File completely, the section across from my unit who had Unix systems were working.

PS: For all that want to blame Bill GAtes for Microsoft''s current business practices, He is not the head of that anymore. Mr Gates went back to programming. Sorry to take down your bulleye on his back.

It''s me, it''s that T-H-E-D.
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I read an article somewhere that basically said...
"Because of the imminent threat of the MS Breakup, Microsoft was defining a new standard (.crud) so that it will still be able to keep control of the software industry without requiring windows".

Think about it folks...

Microsoft couldn''t control Java... NEW STANDARD! (C# - aka C Sharp)
Microsoft couldn''t control the internet... WHAT STANDARD? (Internet Explorer)
Microsoft couldn''t control software writers from writing code that is better than theirs... NEW STANDARD! (Windows API)

Perhaps Microsoft should stop using and abusing standards and actually conform to some of them.

Microsoft Really needs a good damn spanking.




Regards,
Nekosion

Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!
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I was trying to post this a few days ago, but the server went down when i pressed ''post''... heh. here it is:


Windows: Xtra Payments (to line our already gelded coffers and rip off the consumer even mode).


Why do we use microsoft software? here are my reasons:

over 40 percent of all web pages now are designed for IE only, netscape wont display them properly.

Every college I have been to requires Word 2000 to display the project instruction files, and no other word processors read them. (I pirated word 2000 to read one document file and print it out. Im sorry, Im not paying 200$ for that shitty piece of crapware). The printers here never work, so printing it at the school was not an option.

My current college requires projects compiled in MSVC. The computer labs are always full, so i do my projects at home using VC5 (yes, i paid for it).

My video card manufacturer will not support anything but windows and directX, so openGL is out of the question unless i pay for a new video card.

The games I like to play are all on windows and there are no ports for linux.


Microsoft has the software industry by the balls, and won''t let go. I love hearing microsoft complain about people using their software ''illegally'', since their entire corporation is built around theft and deciet.

I vow to never again pay another cent to that company.


Always remember: "The Microsoft Corporation" is an anagram for "Motto: ''Rich fornicates poor''".

===============================================
Hurry up madness, hurry up disease,
hurry up insanity, hurry up please.
Hooray! I say, for the end of the world.
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Well, I read this whole thread and thought I would chime in.
The idea that data will be stored on the M$ server is, to put it bluntly, very stupid. I don''t think alot of companies will enjoy M$ having access to their documents. I''m sure that some of M$''s rivals use M$ Office, it''s a standard, you can''t get around that.
But I don''t thik a rival would trust the ''security'' of a domument they have stored on M$''s server (not quite sure how that works). Also I don''t trust the idea of documents being secure but available from anywhere (in the world), across different platforms (including cell phones?). The security issues alone would stop most companies from using it (I would think). Plus if documents are stored server side then you can''t access them off the net, lets see a show of hands of people who think that that is lame.

Reality time. As I said, MS is the standard (Everywhere I have work, or know about). The higher-ups will hear about the never version of Windows, call their techies and tell them to get it, the techies will complain, the higher-ups won''t care, the techies will do it and then complain to each other and wives and girlfriends (or husbands and boyfriends). A good move would be to start suggesting a move to Star Office (or something else) right now, start dropping hints, like it can open Word and Excell files just as well as M$ Office and it''s cheaper.
Remember, for buisness, not upgrading is NOT an option. If they''re not doing SOMETHING they feel they are stagnating, and as buisness types they know stagnation is BAD. So just saying, don''t upgrade, is not an option. Say well upgrade to Star Office. Which I have used (on linux) and it''s not bad.



Jason Mickela
ICQ : 873518
E-Mail: jmickela@pacbell.net
------------------------------
"Evil attacks from all sides
but the greatest evil attacks
from within." Me
------------------------------
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This thread seems as good as any for some additional open-source propaganda .

Those who haven''t read the ''Halloween'' documents yet really should. These are two memos from a Microsoft employee intended only for the company, but they somehow leaked. The topic of the first is Open Source Software (OSS) and the second one is a study of Linux. It''s a little dated but still quite an intresting journy into the mind of a Microserf . It might shed some light to where Microsoft is going with some of their products as well. I''ll quote what I see as the most important part of it below:

"De-commoditize protocols & applications

OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of
highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can
deny OSS projects entry into the market."

"HTTP-DAV. DAV is complex and the protocol spec provides an infinite level of implementation complexity for
various applications (e.g. the design for Exchange over DAV is good but certainly not the single obvious design).
Apache will be hard pressed to pick and choose the correct first areas of DAV to implement."

(On a side-note HTTP-DAV support was introduced in Apache since long ago now, by an ex Microsoft employee)

"Linux can win as long as services / protocols are commodities."


The documents can be found at http://www.opensource.org/site_index.html.


Sourcecode is free speech!


"This album was written, recorded and edited at Gröndal, Stockholm in the year of 2000. At this point in time money still ruled the world. Capitalistic thoughts were wide spread. From the sky filled with the fumes of a billionarie''s cigar to the deepest abyss drenched in nuclear waste. A rich kid was a happy kid, oh..dirty, filthy times. Let this be a reminder."
- Fireside, taken from back of the Elite album
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Windows XP will be marketed to all user groups, and Home and Pro should be released in July. The main new feature of XP is that explorer is a skin. It''s supposed to ship with 2 skins built in, with skin packs being released in the same manner that plus packs were released with 9x. There will be a total skin API for developers to customize the look/feel of Windows to anything they want...one of the reasons for the 64MB RAM requirement.

Also, Terminal Services will be in every version of XP, including Home. So you can remote-control your Windows machine from anywhere. I have a feeling that this will become the most widespread way to attack personal machines.

Home XP is based on Win2k''s kernel, but lots of things are different. No NTFS, no file-level security, and it can store session states for all users. So a user can "log out" while playing Quake 3, and when they log in Q3 will be in the same state it was when they left. Similar to a "hibernate"

Anyone know when MS will switch to this new pricing model? Just an interesting tid-bit...Microsoft makes most of its profit with Office and Visual Studio. The OS is not the profitable piece...which is one reason why they don''t want to be broken into an OS company and an Everything-else company.

Epolevne
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