why C# and not Java?
Author
Hello everyone!
Lately I have seen a couple of threads about how c# is going to take over gamedev ? I'm not here to argue about that.
What I wonder is why everyone is so "hyped" about c# taking over gamedev but why not Java?
As far as I have seen some new benchmarks on the web, most of them actually say that Java currently is the faster one.
Ok, so I know that c# has Visual studio, which I must say is my second favorite ide - seconds to eclipse. But other than that, it seems to me that java is more mature and I doubt that the .net framework will cach up to suns j2ee framework anytime soon. (j2ee or whatever it's called).
C# has DirectX, but what's wrong with OpenGL with java?
Ok, please don't start flaming that the benchmarks were wrong etc... lets just say that c# and java are equal in performance...
C ya
Good questions! If I had more time, I'd respond in more length -- so excuse my brevity!
C# is having a -lot- of money put into it as the 'premier' development language for Microsoft platforms in the future -- hence, MS is -very- keen to see it succeed and they're trying to make sure their C# solutions are top notch for Windows. Java itself has historically (and I'd argue still is) been very much business oriented -- that's not to say obviously that you can't use the OpenGL bindings...but that's what they are -- bindings to another language's functionality. The better option for Java -should- be Java3D, but Sun and the Java3D community have a hard time competing with MS and their MDX offerings -- especially when the majority of Windows dev appears to be DirectX based (sure, you get some awesome games in OpenGL too, and it is just as functional...but it just seems to be used less).
Either way, form your own opinions -- as far as functionality is concerned, I'd argue that C#/CLR is almost if not as mature as Java is right now -- I really like the Threading and RMI stuff from Java -- but I will admit that I prefer using Visual Studio to eclipse these days. (Not that it was always so -- Eclipse was soooo much better than VC++ 6), but despite it being good -- it can chug a bit unless you have lots of RAM :)
Anyway, these are just my opinions and as brief as I can make them. Form your own opinion based on the results people have had using the respective systems.
~Shiny
C# is having a -lot- of money put into it as the 'premier' development language for Microsoft platforms in the future -- hence, MS is -very- keen to see it succeed and they're trying to make sure their C# solutions are top notch for Windows. Java itself has historically (and I'd argue still is) been very much business oriented -- that's not to say obviously that you can't use the OpenGL bindings...but that's what they are -- bindings to another language's functionality. The better option for Java -should- be Java3D, but Sun and the Java3D community have a hard time competing with MS and their MDX offerings -- especially when the majority of Windows dev appears to be DirectX based (sure, you get some awesome games in OpenGL too, and it is just as functional...but it just seems to be used less).
Either way, form your own opinions -- as far as functionality is concerned, I'd argue that C#/CLR is almost if not as mature as Java is right now -- I really like the Threading and RMI stuff from Java -- but I will admit that I prefer using Visual Studio to eclipse these days. (Not that it was always so -- Eclipse was soooo much better than VC++ 6), but despite it being good -- it can chug a bit unless you have lots of RAM :)
Anyway, these are just my opinions and as brief as I can make them. Form your own opinion based on the results people have had using the respective systems.
~Shiny
Do you have links to the benchmarks? I don't think I've ever really seen a head-to-head comparison of the two languages.
Author
Thanks Shiny, thats the kind of discussion I was hoping for :)
nsto119 - I don't really remember where I found the benchmarks,
but after a quick look at google with "java vs c# performance 2006"
I found this amongst others:
http://blogs.sun.com/dagastine/entry/sun_java_is_faster_than1
Though my point was not to say Java was faster, I was just saying
that c# was not faster than java, and if it is it's just marginaly.
nsto119 - I don't really remember where I found the benchmarks,
but after a quick look at google with "java vs c# performance 2006"
I found this amongst others:
http://blogs.sun.com/dagastine/entry/sun_java_is_faster_than1
Though my point was not to say Java was faster, I was just saying
that c# was not faster than java, and if it is it's just marginaly.
And i never heard of a faster java program. even when the bigges crack make the java program and the biggest sucker the c++ one for a benchmark. But anyway - it could be that i just never heard about it.
My opinion is, that java is only good for internet applications or OS indipendend stuff (and that is slow because the real time comparser). If you
want to write games the java choice is the worst because of the missing DirectX and OpenGl.
My opinion is, that java is only good for internet applications or OS indipendend stuff (and that is slow because the real time comparser). If you
want to write games the java choice is the worst because of the missing DirectX and OpenGl.
Bear in mind I've got no experience with C#, but nevertheless, is execution speed all that matters to you, or are memory usage, development time and other such factors important to you as well?
I'm sorry I can't contribute more to the discussion, but at least these things should provide some food for thought. :)
I'm sorry I can't contribute more to the discussion, but at least these things should provide some food for thought. :)
Author
Karadok, I'm guessing your point is that java is slow becaouse of JIT compiler?
But the same applies to C#.
And there ara jogl bindings to OpenGL for Java, so you do have OpenGL at least. Though I agree that it would be better to have
a built in 3D api with good performance.
But the same applies to C#.
And there ara jogl bindings to OpenGL for Java, so you do have OpenGL at least. Though I agree that it would be better to have
a built in 3D api with good performance.
The main reason has relatively little to do with efficiency/"speed".
I know this is going to offend some people but the truth of the matter is that Java (and the platform) has many issues that just make it a pain in the ass and verbose, it's just an unpleasant experience. No I don't mean it's difficult I mean the language (and platform) is borked. Before anyone tells me otherwise I have 3-4 years past experience with Java so I know what I’m talking about.
C# (and the .NET platform/environment) does a whole lot of things right and/or much better.
Even though this is the case I am not as keen about the C# language itself (not .NET) as others are but this isn't even an issue since you have an array of languages which target .NET (and even the Java platform).
I know this is going to offend some people but the truth of the matter is that Java (and the platform) has many issues that just make it a pain in the ass and verbose, it's just an unpleasant experience. No I don't mean it's difficult I mean the language (and platform) is borked. Before anyone tells me otherwise I have 3-4 years past experience with Java so I know what I’m talking about.
C# (and the .NET platform/environment) does a whole lot of things right and/or much better.
Even though this is the case I am not as keen about the C# language itself (not .NET) as others are but this isn't even an issue since you have an array of languages which target .NET (and even the Java platform).
last i tried, interoping with c++ in java was a pain.
i like the java api but the language is too limited.
i like the java api but the language is too limited.
Ok, got a bit more time to sit down this time (waiting for the new Apple developer tools to download (~980MB so I'll be waiting a bit).
Anyway: I think the OP is interested in just why everyone around here is so keen on .NET and C# in general as an alternative to 'the old favourites' (C++ etc). I'm sure everyone has their own reasons; but I'm betting that a major one is that Microsoft does provide great support for their developers -- their tools are top notch, their feedback systems are good and their documentation is easily as good as the Javadocs (often better in places -- I find it easier to search). They have the advantage of only really having to target one platform and to the user -- once .NET framework is installed, they never have to think about it again (A compiled .NET program is an executable and doesn't require you to fireup the CLR for it) -- No little teacup hanging around that people might feel like playing with. As far as the internet is concerned -- C# can do just about all the things Java can...but Java has far greater acceptance (because it's been around longer...) and it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as a good microsoft solution.
It's like the argument for and against using Windows 2003 Server -- it's great, does everything Linux can do -- has a new powershell coming out soon...but it costs many $$$ -- whereas even enterprise Linux systems like Redhat and SuSE are much cheaper to deploy, hence they get used as often or more often than the former.
Still, I suppose you could tie it all down to Microsoft themselves actually -wanting- people to use C# and .NET to make games -- check out this Wiki entry on Microsoft's XNA (Clicky) -- a streamlined system for game development on PC and XBox 360. Note that the Express version (free beta download right now, BTW) is based on the .NET framework and designed to work with Visual C# Express Edition! Sure, the pros will get a professional version with a real devkit to debug on, but this is a massive offering to anyone interested into getting into game dev.
This contrasts sharply with Sun: They know they have heaps of businesses invested in their enterprise solutions -- hence they get the community behind Java to look after things like Java3D. Note that Java3D stuff can be run right out of a browser! Pretty cool stuff that I've yet to see anyone do in C# ;). Check out their page (Sun's Java3D developer page...) right here.
Either way, use what you feel comfortable with -- or even better, the best tool for the job.
~Shiny
Anyway: I think the OP is interested in just why everyone around here is so keen on .NET and C# in general as an alternative to 'the old favourites' (C++ etc). I'm sure everyone has their own reasons; but I'm betting that a major one is that Microsoft does provide great support for their developers -- their tools are top notch, their feedback systems are good and their documentation is easily as good as the Javadocs (often better in places -- I find it easier to search). They have the advantage of only really having to target one platform and to the user -- once .NET framework is installed, they never have to think about it again (A compiled .NET program is an executable and doesn't require you to fireup the CLR for it) -- No little teacup hanging around that people might feel like playing with. As far as the internet is concerned -- C# can do just about all the things Java can...but Java has far greater acceptance (because it's been around longer...) and it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as a good microsoft solution.
It's like the argument for and against using Windows 2003 Server -- it's great, does everything Linux can do -- has a new powershell coming out soon...but it costs many $$$ -- whereas even enterprise Linux systems like Redhat and SuSE are much cheaper to deploy, hence they get used as often or more often than the former.
Still, I suppose you could tie it all down to Microsoft themselves actually -wanting- people to use C# and .NET to make games -- check out this Wiki entry on Microsoft's XNA (Clicky) -- a streamlined system for game development on PC and XBox 360. Note that the Express version (free beta download right now, BTW) is based on the .NET framework and designed to work with Visual C# Express Edition! Sure, the pros will get a professional version with a real devkit to debug on, but this is a massive offering to anyone interested into getting into game dev.
This contrasts sharply with Sun: They know they have heaps of businesses invested in their enterprise solutions -- hence they get the community behind Java to look after things like Java3D. Note that Java3D stuff can be run right out of a browser! Pretty cool stuff that I've yet to see anyone do in C# ;). Check out their page (Sun's Java3D developer page...) right here.
Either way, use what you feel comfortable with -- or even better, the best tool for the job.
~Shiny
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