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tHomahwk

Leveling and weapon damage

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A lot of games deal with weapon damage very differently. Some games you need to boost a characters attribute (strength for a lot of games), which will increase either the total possible damage you can inflict (via some formula), or it will increase the minimum and/or maximum damage via straight up numbers (i.e. +1 damage, +1 to minimum damage or +1 to maximum damage). Other games instead use some kind of a scaling system when leveling your character (these games typically have some kind of weapon skill system) where the higher your skill, the higher the maximum damage you can do (i.e. with a Sword skill of 55, you can do say 73% of the maximum damage the sword can do, while when using a Club with a club skill of 23 may only result in say 51% of the maximum damage). While both of the systems offer differences and reasonings as to why more damage is done, I was wondering which one really is more practical in a game. Both and neither of these offer [a] solution[s] to melee characters having to constantly "farm" or worry about their equipment first and foremost. In most games imo (please don't go off topic about this, this is besides the point) a lot of RPGs seem to be that the Mage/Wizard/Sorcerer/etc is as good as their spells and attributes while melee/ranged characters are solely as good as the equipment they are wearing. The 1st option (from first paragraph) is more of a "my strength increased! yeah! Good thing I have the same skill with this weapon as a mage!" Just because your strength increases doesn't necessarily mean that you can deal more damage (although I will admit that it DOES help). In this case, it seems that everyone can deal damage without regard to the skill or their knowledge of the weapon they are currently using. The 2nd method seems almost degrading; "ugh..my sword skill is so low I can barely do any damage with it. I need to go grind some more monsters to increase it". It does make sense, seeing how a person using a sword all the time learns how to swing better, knows where to hit armor and in general knows how to be more lethal with their "chosen" weapon. I am curious to what other people have to say about this. Is there a better alternative to separate/remove this trend of melee characters being so dependent on their equipment that it can remove the fun from the game?

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lately, I've been toying with the idea of having not more damage done, because that's just ridiculous, reality-wise, given that no one, at ANY level of skill in anything, can survive a headshot, or someone slicing his head. But on the other hand, learning new tricks MAY help.

Now, let's say that your basic fight is just "pick a move from your moves pool". Such a system would be neither interesting nor exciting. But if your move depended both on your previous move and that of the opponent, strategy would play a part. And if it included moving your character on hexes to corner your opponent, then another layer of strategy might be added. A third and last layer could be added through the management of personnal energy and combat winning side, provided the first connecting hit gave the victory.

Now, let's say that each move is like a card that you can play after another, but can only play again after some turns, maybe (equal to cooldown effect). the equivalent of levelling could be attained by earning more cards of one type, therefore hitting again faster, since each "card" has a personnal "cooldown time". And it certainly would create more styles of fighting than anything in "Guild Wars" or in "WoW"... making for a funnier game, I hope.

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As always, everything depends of the type of game you are writting :
A brainless manslaughter only needs a one number statistic called "damage".
The classical hack'n slash rpg requires the full batch of stats : min damage, max damage, skill, strength, agility...
A FPS does only consider the weapon type and the hit location.

I am currently coding a little personal project. A kind of hack'n slash RPG where it would be very easy to die (considering you have a whole familiy of potentially infinite members it is not such a big deal). I am considering the following system for damage calculations : The maximum damage one can deal depends only on the weapon, the minimum damage depends on the skill. That means that a novice can deal the maximum damage but cannot bet on this each time. I plan to make almost every weapon able to kill an unarmoured enemy within one strike. Piercing good armor however, will require a better weapon, as armour is substracted from the maximum damage. There will also be a special attack one can choose that allows to do critical damage.

Of course this system will (hopefully) work well within my game, I wouldn't recommend it in your classical diablo-like MMORPG.

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ok, im a noob and im brainstorming how to make my first text based rpg. NOT A MMORPG, i have common sense. I use python. I was wondering about the damage system. Heres my thoughts on how to program it. Please tell me if im way off base. Python uses dictionaries, If i had "short sword: 6" then can i have an equation saying add baseDamage + attackBonus + whateverElseModifierIUse + short sword= 10. Then have another function called with that argument(10) and run a rand 1-10 and return that number for how much damage is issued.

P.S. I just got off work and its hard to collect my thoughts sorry if im not making sense

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I'm just thinking out loud here. Strengt and weapon type should play a role in how much damage it's possible to inflict (maximum damage) since a sharp sword might inflict more damage than a dull - and a really weak person isn't really able to do much damage at all (let alone carry the weapon). Minimum damage should perhaps be adjusted by a skill modifier. A person proficient with at two handed sword will deal more damage in average then a person who's not and he'll also seldom miss. This brings up the point of critical hits and misses which is a good way to add meaning to skills. A skilled person would be better to se possibilities in a fight and therefore be able to use them to inflict serious wounds (critical hit) where an unskilled person is likely to mess things up for himself (critical miss) and perhaps loose his weapon, hurt himself, fall or something similar.

This also got me thinking of how bows are handled in your common RPG. Why aren't there any strength modifiers on bows? A longbow requires a really strong person to use it!

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Quote:
Original post by Yvanhoe
...The maximum damage one can deal depends only on the weapon, the minimum damage depends on the skill. That means that a novice can deal the maximum damage but cannot bet on this each time. I plan to make almost every weapon able to kill an unarmoured enemy within one strike. Piercing good armor however, will require a better weapon, as armour is substracted from the maximum damage. There will also be a special attack one can choose that allows to do critical damage.


You mean the armour is subtracted from the 'rolled' damage, surely? Small daggers can easily kill someone in plate armour if you know precisely where to hit and and what angle, which I guess is your skill factor.

The system we use allows skills used (success threshold) to modify damage and damage type - letting us throw in 'option skills' like 'strike to injure' (increased critical) and 'strike to stun' (stun damage) as well as the usual range of weapon 'to hit' skills.


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Original post by _winterdyne_
You mean the armour is subtracted from the 'rolled' damage, surely? Small daggers can easily kill someone in plate armour if you know precisely where to hit and and what angle, which I guess is your skill factor.


No, from the maximum. I consider it is a "hardware problem" to know if a certain weapon can pierce a certain armor. Otherwise, doubling your max damage in order to pierce a doubled armor would require you to double your skill too.

Quote:
Original post by _winterdyne_
The system we use allows skills used (success threshold) to modify damage and damage type - letting us throw in 'option skills' like 'strike to injure' (increased critical) and 'strike to stun' (stun damage) as well as the usual range of weapon 'to hit' skills.


Yes it is possible but hard. I plan it to make possible to choose a different attack that would fail most of the time but could kill in one strike, bypassing the armor. The success would depend on the attacker skill, the creature style and the armor cover, not the armor strength, something like 50% of protection for a chainmail, 65% if you had in an helmet, 90% for a full plate, etc...

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The normal hitpoint system isn't really realistic at all and not very good. When thinking a bit about it I think I'd add a stamina counter. During a fight you get tired and the more tired you get, the easier it is to hurt you. Killing a person - or making him unable to fight back can be achieved in a single blow but you're not necessarily able to pull off a hit like that unless you're skilled, the person is unskilled or the person is fatigued.

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Well, as pointed in numerous threads, medical simulation and stamina limitations are more realistic but are no fun at all. After all, the goal is to make you "slow down" make sure the pace of the game isn't suffering of that.

I don't like hitpoints either mainly because I find it irrealistic in a world where someone can have 20 or 200 hitpoints. But remember that this is 'just' an abstraction mechanism. I prefer to have a health percentage (with everyone having the same amount) and numerous flags (ill, stunned, hallucinating, etc...) but all in all it is just a matter of counting how many strikes will be needed to bring you down.

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Original post by Yvanhoe
Well, as pointed in numerous threads, medical simulation and stamina limitations are more realistic but are no fun at all. After all, the goal is to make you "slow down" make sure the pace of the game isn't suffering of that.


Well.. it might be fun - it all depends on how you handle it. A battle where two persons are hitting each other in turn and slowly draining life isn't really all that fun either if you think about it. I would say that a stamina system might open up for alot of interesting things. For one it would show quite clarely who's having the upper hand when you don't manage to attack the enemy because you've only got enough energy left to defend yourself. I would also expect that rage-abilities which temporarily boosts your stamina when you're almost worn out could be quite cool. It would also add the strategic element of having enough juice left to run from battle if that's needed.

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Stamina does have some uses in games, although in others its used horribly. A great example of where its used horribly is Diablo II, where it is used solely for running around. Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion uses staminaa little bit better, where stamina is used whenever you swing your sword or jump, but imo it does not still use stamina to its fullest. In the game if you want, you can attempt to parry and hold out either your sword or shield as long as you want. How many ppl do you know who can hold a shield up to their foes for 15-30 mins? I would get rather tired myself.


I agree with the fact that HP is at best a bad way of role playing (what year was it invented? 60s? 70s? c'mon now!), but until a better system is devised/accepted, its unlikely that this will change. Making a game too realistic as has been stated does not always equal fun to play. If you remove HP from the game, and have attacks more realistic, what now do you do with magic spells and such? Healing seems fairly simple (maybe I am wrong), but spells like, a fireball for example would turn you extra crispy or would make you throwing off your super heated armor (this creates a great image in my head of a bunch of monsters running around screaming with armor melting to them). Does this really make the game fun? That is the question which will haunt all of us forever.

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Quote:
Original post by Fournicolas
lately, I've been toying with the idea of having not more damage done, because that's just ridiculous, reality-wise, given that no one, at ANY level of skill in anything, can survive a headshot, or someone slicing his head. But on the other hand, learning new tricks MAY help.


I remember when one woman was tied up and her husband was playing with a gun. It shoted when it was close to her head and aimed at her. She survived. (Of course that gun was locked, however certain types of guns could fire even when locked, it was one of them.)

And of course you could remember at the flesh wound, that was caused to princes from Dragon Half. Sword right through her heart appeared at the other side.

[Edited by - Raghar on September 7, 2006 9:06:16 AM]

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Original post by Raghar
Quote:
Original post by Fournicolas
lately, I've been toying with the idea of having not more damage done, because that's just ridiculous, reality-wise, given that no one, at ANY level of skill in anything, can survive a headshot, or someone slicing his head. But on the other hand, learning new tricks MAY help.


I remember when one woman was tied up and her husband was playing with a gun. It shoted when it was close to her head and aimed at her. She survived. (Of course that gun was locked, however certain types of guns could fire even when locked, it was one of them.)

And of course you could remember at the flesh wound, that was caused to princes from Dragon Half. Sword right through her heart appeared at the other side.


Ok, then some are lucky enough to survive a shot in the head, or are supernatural enough to have a sword through the heart be minor "flesh wound"...

Hopefully, there won't be many "special" people like these two exemples. Being sure to die if you fail makes for an exciting fight. It also makes for strong frustration when you DO die, but people must learn. After all, in SF2, people DID die all the time, until they learned how to beat every other character with a specific range of moves. That's just the same, only with a different fighting style...

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Original post by Fournicolas
After all, in SF2, people DID die all the time, until they learned how to beat every other character with a specific range of moves. That's just the same, only with a different fighting style...


SF2? Street Fighter 2?

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