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Platinum314

Multiple types of ammo for different weapons.

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In the Sci-Fi 1st person RPG I have been designing lately, weapons & ammunition can have special properies applied to them. For example you can use perfect exploding shotgun shells in an energy augmented automatic shotgun, or superconducting slugs in an energy effecient railgun. Just like the traditional fantasy RPGs magical weapons, there are tens of thousands of possible weapons. However I seem to have run into a snag. What about reloading weapons? Can a gun have multiple types of ammo inside at the same time? It has become quite maddening. I am thinking of having only one type of ammo equipped at one time, or you manually reloading the weapon by dragging the specific ammo you want onto the specific weapon you want. Any suggestions, comments?

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I remember my police shotgun training had a whole section on how to use specialty ammo. As a rule, you had a tube full of buckshot, for its generally desirable performance, but every so often you had to fire a slug or a novelty round, such as a less-lethal baton shot or a cannister of OC spray.

There is a little series of actions you have to perform to get the specialty shot in there. You load your chosen round into the magazine (The tubular magazine works like a first-in-first-out stack), cycle the action manually to get your "normal" round out of the chamber and your novelty in, then put the normal cartridge back into the top of the magazine. It's pretty cool, and makes you feel like a badass when you do it.

My old Daisy Powerline 880 had a reservoir of BBs, but pellets had to be loaded manually into the action. Something like that could work for your railgun. The sabots of matter that serve as projectiles coul be loaded automatically for rapid fire, but then you could manually open the action, pop the normal round out and replace it with a signal flare, an armor-piercing warhead, or whatever other unusual munition you wanted, then pop that shot off. The next shot, if left to cycle normally, would be a conventianal round.

It's a good way to do something different without swapping out your magazine.

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So for certain weapons you can manually load it with whatever ammo you want in whatever order you want. This works well for weapons that don't carry large amounts of ammo in their magazine such as shotguns, pistols, rifles, and my railgun.

However what about automatic weapons? Should I only have one type of ammunition equipped at once for those? It seems like it could quickly become a hassle.

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well splinter cell did this with its sc 20k you had sticky shockers bullets airfoil rings excerta,and personally im against this for anything but a stealth game...

for me i like killing someone and gaining there weapon not having 1 weapon and using it for everthing

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Quote:
Original post by firewall1
well splinter cell did this with its sc 20k you had sticky shockers bullets airfoil rings excerta,and personally im against this for anything but a stealth game...

for me i like killing someone and gaining there weapon not having 1 weapon and using it for everthing


You can still do that in my game design. Suppose you have a standard shotgun, you kill an enemy and take his automatic shotgun, or you can save up money and buy a double barrelled shotgun, or you can build your own uber shotgun if you have the enginnering and mechanical skills. You can also carry a flame thrower and plasma cannon if you have enough strength while you are at it. The different types of ammo is just an extra dimension.

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Are you doing a single player (where the game can be paused) or is it multiplayer?

If you're able to pause the game in any way or maybe even if it is multiplayer I'd do it in between deaths...

Make it where the player can just pop open a menu, just like in Final Fantasy, and based upon what arrays of munitions and ammunitions they have they can create their own weapons out of it.

In fact that could be really cool! You could make it where each type of ammunition has a certain effect (like reagents should in spells), then each gun has a certain projectile method it uses. Bullets should obviously not be used in conjunction with say a rocket launcher without some serious creativity going into it.

But it might be cool just to have the weapon be able to evolve, or let the player actually "enhance" it to do some unexpect things by letting them choose what combination of munitions it can fire.

Then you can either just define what each bullet type does (does it explode? deal direct damage? deal damage over time [biological]? does it deal any damage or is it a flare?) then decide what the guns projectile range is, speed, etc...
Then let the game figure out what should happen, you might see some pretty interesting things happen when you modify a pistol that can fire rockets, lol!

Or take a whiteboard and start drawing a web of ideas, come out with every type of ammunition (you made a comparison to spells so I'm going to say they're reagents) and draw out what they can do. Then make a bunch of bubbles with each gun and what it can do.

Then start drawing lines to connect what each gun can when equipped with what ammunition.

I guess in a way the gun is nothing more then an incanation or the actual invocation of a spell.

The reagents would all determine it's effect... but you'll have to be sure to compensate balance in there.

Then start drawing lines to connect what each gun can when equipped with what ammunition.

You may have to get a rather large whiteboard to do this!

But you've got a really good idea up your sleeve I think.

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oh wow... this is eerie. I guess I can't keep my ideas secret after this. In my game design docs, and in a small demo I made 3 years ago I used different ammos with an extremely advanced weapon system. One of the ideas I've always put into my games is multiple ammo types. However you can queue up clips and switch between them. You can also customize each clip loading different bullets that are the same type into a clip. My game is sci-fi too. If you are using shields in your game, make EMP bullets that hurt shields but don't hit for much real damage. Let a player load up a magazine with emp bullets shoot down the enemies shield and switch to real ammo. Also something you should work into your weapons is multiple firing modes. Either using different ammo or the same ammo. When you switch to a firing mode reload that clip. Also have "auto-reload" firing modes, ones that don't stop other firing modes from working.

As a quick example, I made an assault rifle in my demo that had a single fire super accurate shot, and an inaccurate second firing mode that burst shot. It's third firing mode used a different kind of ammo, a rocket which could be loaded while shooting automatically at the cost of lowering the accuracy of the gun while reloading. (I was figuring the character was loading in a new rocket while shooting.)

A good weapon idea I never used would be to have two firing modes with different clips. It was possible with how my clip queue was set up. Right clicking changed the firing mode and the clip queue on the screen changed to show the clips that the player put into that firing mode queue. For instance, in my other example emp bullets on one mode and armor piercing on the other would be cool.

I kind of got lost in micromanagement with my weapon system though. :/ My new one is gonna be better :)

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If you have a secondary fire, you could always use that. A gun that fires buckshot in primary will fire buckshot in secondary.

Alternatively, you could have different weapons per ammo type, each with the same general graphic. Minor changes could exist, like the weapon cannister glowing blue or having the words "Incendary Fire Mode" glow from a faceplate. If another ammunition type is in the gun, then you'd just reload. It could work.

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Siserian (sp?) in a way its just like switching out canons in the Metroid franchises though. You can add a "wave" spread to your ice beams, or change it to plastma, etc...

I think you can add in some much more random effects and make it an entire focus of a game though and end up with something very interesting. Or make it just one element in a rather diverse game.

It would be very interesting to see just the random element put into it... where you can use any ammunition type and make them "crossbreed" with the weapon. So firing mini-gun clips out of a rocket launcher produces some completely weird effect :)

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Just changing magazines is perfectly acceptable to me for automatic weapons. The F2000 used in Splinter Cell fires the custom ammo out of a single-shot underslung 40mm grenade launcher, so Sam's loading those rounds individually into the chamber as you use them, while the main rifle barrel is fed from a magazine of 5.56mm ammo.

But remember, if you swap magazines, the first round you fire will be a relic from the previous mag, unless you manually cycle the action to eject it. So if you're using armor piercing ammo, switch to a stun ammo mag and shoot a guy in the head, that first round will still be AP, and you'll kill him.

Manually loading your magazines could be cool. You could set up an EM magazine with an explosive round every third cartridge, so a burst of three will be two shield-neutralizing EM pulses, then a skull-busting explosive shot.

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Thanks for the comments, I think I have an idea on how I am going to do it. Certain weapons you reload manually, each shot at a time, which goes in as a queue, and other weapons (automatic weapons) you load in a magazine all at once(I am going to allow you to mix different ammos together for this if you have the skills for it.

I actually do have EM projectiles (and energy weapons with the same kind of effect), but I was mostly planning for them to be effective against cybernetic targets, but them also effecting energy shields (I have them too) is a neat idea.

I also have a psionics system, but I think I have it completely worked out.

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Quote:
Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
But remember, if you swap magazines, the first round you fire will be a relic from the previous mag, unless you manually cycle the action to eject it. So if you're using armor piercing ammo, switch to a stun ammo mag and shoot a guy in the head, that first round will still be AP, and you'll kill him.


That bit should probably be abstracted away as part of the whole reloading/ammo switching command. You don't want things to become too tedious for the player: know whether you want your game to play like a FPS or a "special ops" game. Having some rounds come in magazines and some having to be loaded one by one is about where I would draw the line as far as complexity and realism goes. Having the gun fire the wrong kind of round just because I forgot to hit a key to eject the last one, leading be to kill a NPC rather than stun him would only aggravate me and cause me to reload the last game save.

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fwiw, here's my system

As the player you can fire your weapon, throw grenades and configure your weapon, you can do other stuff but theese are the relevant actions.

The principle is that you can fire your weapon with [fire] and throw grenades with [grenade]. If your weaon is equiped with a grenade launcher or something simmilar it is used instead.
If you hold [configure] a tree like display is showed where you can select ammo type, if you want a grenade launcher, silencer, bayonett, scope(and magnification), changing the stock(closed open) and/or to some extent changing the fire modes. (yes this looks alot like the way farcry2 handles weapon configurations)
The changing of the looks of the weapon isn't just a gimmick. It changes the way the weapon works. The stock, the scope for example inreases the accuracy on some distances and reduce it at others, while the bayonett decreases the accuracy but grants you lethal close-combat attacks.

As for what the hero does when the player changes ammo, the same ideas from reloading is applied on changing ammo. I try to go realistic as far as possible, but not too realistic to stop(or hinder) gameplay.
So... for relaoding you pick up clips and reload with clips. Reloading your weapon makes you throw away thoose bullets you havent fired. Switching clip is a s easy as switching clips. I might throw in a cocking manouver so the player can feel cool :)
Chanmbered bullets doesn't exist in this game, or to be more exact the cambered bullet somehow magically goes with the clip you are using.

hth

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Haven't really read all the posts, but one interesting thing I read about in wikipedia are rifle grenades.

Basically, you have a grenade that is fixed to the end of a rifle barrel and when the rifle is fired, the bullet is caught in a bullet-trap on the grenade and the grenade is launched. Its not quite as long-range as a dedicated grenade launcher but its convenient because anyone with a rifle and some of these can use heavy firepower you can't get from a bullet.

Depending on the grenade, it can be detonated either by a fuse or detonate on impact. In a futuristic setting, you could set up all sorts of triggers like have them remote detonated or wait until something gets near them when they drop.

Anyway, the thing with present day rifle grenades is the user can keep using the bullets in his gun as normal but if he suddenly needs to use heavy firepower, he can quickly fix one of these onto his rifle, aim, fire it and then get back to shooting as normal.

You could pretty much have an unlimited number of different rifle grenades:

EMP grenades, gas grenades, fragmentation grenades, homing becons...

have some different properies:

stick to surfaces, explode on impact, explode via remote control, explode at the apex of flight when shot in an arc, sprout legs after falling to the ground and then head for the nearest moving object...


Then when someone want to use one, they just select it from a list or bag or something, stick it to their rifle and fire. It would just be a one-shot deal.


Anyway, thats one idea. the wikipedia article is here

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Quote:
Original post by Platinum314
Certain weapons you reload manually, each shot at a time, which goes in as a queue, and other weapons (automatic weapons) you load in a magazine all at once(I am going to allow you to mix different ammos together for this if you have the skills for it.


It might take a little skill to swap shotgun shells, as Iron Chef Carnage described, to change magazines, to turn a switch etc. quickly and in the heat of battle, but certainly not to prepare a magazine with an arbitrary sequence of cartridges beforehand. The limiting factor for these tricks should be the availability of specialty ammo and extra magazines.

If you want skills there is the related specialty of building, reloading and modifying cartridges; the character could recycle used cases, load more or less gunpowder according to his needs, make strange things not found on the market like silver or blessed bullets, and less realistically build fancy high-tech ammo on his own.

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