Quote:Our client has an immediate need for a C++/VB developer with 3 or more years experience in IT to join their team in this month. Primary Duties include but are not limited to: performs detailed analysis, design, programming, and unit/integration testing of assigned subsystems and modules. Candidate should be proficient in the following languages/technologies: ASP, C++, XML, XSLT, Web Services, javascript, VB, COM/COM+, SQL, Enterprise databases (SQLServer, or Oracle). Understands and follows the principles of object oriented design. Participates in design and code walkthroughs. Prepares complete and accurate estimates for statements of work and project plans. Prepares high-level architectures and designs as needed. Limited travel to various client sites will be required as is carrying a blackberry. This permanent position includes a full suite of benefits in a business casual environment and offers free parking. (WOW free parking!!! i wonder if we get to wear hawiian t-shirts and jeans on friday??//??!!!1!1!!1) Required Experience: -------------------- C++ XML Visual Basic SQL Software Development Life Cycle VB Script Required Skills ---------------- C Plus Plus <----- WTF?? XML Visual Basic SQL SDLC SQL Server Documentation Preferred skills include: Visual Basic Script, COM, Com Plus, javascript, Oracle, MS.Net, VoIP (Voice Over IP), Avaya, Unit Testing, Use Cases Benefits/Perks --------------- BlueCross BlueShield medical VSP vision Delta dental Equal opportunity employer that offers competitive salaries and benefits in a casual, fast-paced work environment. Application Requirements -------------------------- Client requires Green Card or U.S. Citizenship for this position. <!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--> Wow this sounds great and all i suppose but lets break this down. how many languages/technologies are requirements? Lets suppose you meet the minumum and you have 3 solid years of experience. no way in 1,000 years would you have knowledge or have time to get seasoned in C++, XML, VB, SQL/Oracle, VB Script, databases, XSLT and who knows what other buzzwords the "HR" dept missed. I supposed if you had 20 years experience you have had some development with all those languages but even then i highly doubt it not just because of time constraints but also because hopefully the candidate that they are seeking hasnt had 5 or 6 different jobs that employs many different technologies. For instance if you get settled in a job chances are you will develop in 1 technology and maybe 2. unless you have been job hopping then you are mostly like at any given point only going to know 2 of those skills really well and maybe played around with another. Simple speaking, C++, XML and SQL are COMPLETELY different skills to master. No hard core C++ guy is going to touch SQL with a 10 foot pole and vice versa. people that do XML are good at XML, HTML and maybe some Java. My point is is that they want the world when in reality someone is going to have skills in 2 of those that they listed and then they go on to add things like VoIP, Avaya, COM/COM+ and SDLC(whatever that is). again it does say 3 or more years of experience but we good and well know they arent looking for someone with 20 years of experience which is the only person this side of Juptier that would have a chance and meeting all these requirements. If they did find that person they wouldnt want to pay the $80,000 a year this person would demand. They are hoping against hope to find some bozo who will work for $40,000 a year but they wont find him, not one that knows all that stuff. Maybe i am overreacting. The only types of job ads that beat this one though are continued ads wanting 5+ years experience in .NET and 4+ years in 'we wrote this piece of software in house'. Maybe its just a bluff so they can say they tried and they found no one so then they can ship the job to india-land where they can actually fill this position hiring 3 or 4 people, which is how many people it would take to actually fulfill all the desired skills. they can pay ALL 3 or 4 people about $12,000 a piece so they get to pay 3 or 4 people for the price of 1. i wish there was someway to force these companies to make sure these jobs are actually jobs and just no something an HR person typed up..i even wonder if the job ad was written by more than one person?? Note at the top it is C++ and then down a little bit it is "C Plus Plus". gimme a break.
NO wonder IT jobs arent being filled...
Author
...i dont think there is a shortage of skilled IT workers in America right now and i dont think people want a handout but certainly people are qualified but not when companies are requiring skills that rival that of a superhero. example:
Job Headline:
VB/C++ developer
Begin new permanent assignment before the fall.
I disagree. The only things from that list that I haven't used myself (one time or another) are ASP, COM, CSDL and Avaya. ASP and COM wouldn't be that hard to pick up, and I have a feeling Avaya is just a VoIP-ish application.
Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion]
Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion]
Author
Quote:Original post by Mushu
I disagree. The only things from that list that I haven't used myself (one time or another) are ASP, COM, CSDL and Avaya. ASP and COM wouldn't be that hard to pick up, and I have a feeling Avaya is just a VoIP-ish application.
Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion]
If they want a senior development guy that usually means at least 10+ years experience. they should spell out senior level guys because thats the only people that are going to know all these languages in a real software develeopment setting and not at home tinkering with it. by the way how many years of experience do you have?
Quote:
C++
XML
Visual Basic
SQL
SDLC
SQL Server
Oracle
HSQL
.NET
J2EE
Java
C#
HTML
CSS
javascript
DHTML
AJAX
Documentation
Unit Testing
Use Cases
That's pretty much everything I deal with on a daily basis on 1 year of experience.
And Avaya is just a company that does VoIP solutions for big companies. This is kind of weird that it's in the list, as it basically means "can use a phone".
I'm 22 and I meet every one of those requirements. Well, technically, anyways. I had a class where we used Oracle, I haven't used VB since VB5 (mostly did vb4, though), etc
They don't mention any of it has to be professional experience, nor do they require a degree (which I'm still working on).
The job sounds rather crappy if you actually use all those technologies, though. I'd hate to never have even 5 minutes to investigate anything before switching langauges and platforms and going from utility development in VB to ease your enterprise database application development using C++, then to make a web page to show off the new product using vbscript for ASP and javascript on the client side, etc
It doesn't require for X years of experience in a technology less than X years old, so it's really not too bad as far as job listings go.
They don't mention any of it has to be professional experience, nor do they require a degree (which I'm still working on).
The job sounds rather crappy if you actually use all those technologies, though. I'd hate to never have even 5 minutes to investigate anything before switching langauges and platforms and going from utility development in VB to ease your enterprise database application development using C++, then to make a web page to show off the new product using vbscript for ASP and javascript on the client side, etc
It doesn't require for X years of experience in a technology less than X years old, so it's really not too bad as far as job listings go.
Quote:Original post by OpenGL_GuruQuote:Original post by Mushu
I disagree. The only things from that list that I haven't used myself (one time or another) are ASP, COM, CSDL and Avaya. ASP and COM wouldn't be that hard to pick up, and I have a feeling Avaya is just a VoIP-ish application.
Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion]
If they want a senior development guy that usually means at least 10+ years experience. they should spell out senior level guys because thats the only people that are going to know all these languages in a real software develeopment setting and not at home tinkering with it. by the way how many years of experience do you have?
I didn't mean to imply that it could be for a senior position - I was just stating that it wasn't exactly an "entry level" (ie, no experience) job either.
As for my own experience - none. I'm still in school.
I also (strongly) disagree. This is called a systems analyst position. Yes, there are people with this skill set (I have it, in addition to a lot of other stuff that tends to come up. Even knowing your way around the underside of Access can prove invaluable on a job). 3 years with this skill set would be an intermediate position, not a senior one (unless the person had proved themselves especially competent, in which case they might be working in a senior position by their own doing). No, this is not entry level programming, and it isn't code monkey programming either: code monkeys get trained in one language, then blindly bash out stuff through route memorization and recall. Analysts get paid twice or more the salary of code monkeys for their ability to think and learn.
I'm guessing you are either a student, or have been confined to an odd job (game programming counts as odd) that didn't exercise these. [non-code monkey] Business programmers (who constitute the majority of programmers) do know many technologies/languages at a time (and are constantly learning more) and how to make them work together. We don't bash everything out by hand in C++ (a 3 month project would take 3 years following the "I have to invent it all in C++ myself" method), we use C++ or another base language as glue for components we can build faster, better and more compatible with neighboring programs with a higher level system.
Oh, and the "C Plus Plus" is probably because of some entry filter (lots of job sites or other automated HR databases will either eat or not properly index "++". A programmer analyst is paid to be able to recognize this kind of stuff)
I'm guessing you are either a student, or have been confined to an odd job (game programming counts as odd) that didn't exercise these. [non-code monkey] Business programmers (who constitute the majority of programmers) do know many technologies/languages at a time (and are constantly learning more) and how to make them work together. We don't bash everything out by hand in C++ (a 3 month project would take 3 years following the "I have to invent it all in C++ myself" method), we use C++ or another base language as glue for components we can build faster, better and more compatible with neighboring programs with a higher level system.
Oh, and the "C Plus Plus" is probably because of some entry filter (lots of job sites or other automated HR databases will either eat or not properly index "++". A programmer analyst is paid to be able to recognize this kind of stuff)
Author
Quote:Original post by capn_midnightQuote:
C++
XML
Visual Basic
SQL
SDLC
SQL Server
Oracle
HSQL
.NET
J2EE
Java
C#
HTML
CSS
javascript
DHTML
AJAX
Documentation
Unit Testing
Use Cases
That's pretty much everything I deal with on a daily basis on 1 year of experience.
And Avaya is just a company that does VoIP solutions for big companies. This is kind of weird that it's in the list, as it basically means "can use a phone".
whats the minimum base pay per year you would except?? and what job has you doing all that when thats at least for 3 or 4 people?? you are doing all that with just 1 year experience?..basically entry level?
Author
Quote:Original post by Michalson
I'm guessing you are either a student, or have been confined to an odd job (game programming counts as odd) that didn't exercise these. [non-code monkey] Business programmers (who constitute the majority of programmers) do know many technologies/languages at a time (and are constantly learning more) and how to make them work together. We don't bash everything out by hand in C++ (a 3 month project would take 3 years following the "I have to invent it all in C++ myself" method), we use C++ or another base language as glue for components we can build faster, better and more compatible with neighboring programs with a higher level system.
no i am not a student and yes i have been doing a job for about 4 years now, C/C++/MFC and openGL on contract work. we also do HTML/CSS/XML and java but guess what.. they hired someone to do that, not make one person do all of it. Oracle is another position at the company. guess what.. they have an ORACLE/SQL guy that knows Oracle/SQL/DB. do i know all of these..yeah i KNOW them but am i proficient in all of them? heck no. i guess thats the difference. yeah i can code in most of those/get a book and learn it quickly/whatever but do i know it enough to hit the ground running on the first day without any supervision or training?? nope.
And to touch on the tough to get into IT industry/shortage of workers. It's actually both.
A few years back (well almost 10 now) ordinary people started realizing that "computer people" where making a lot of money. The result was that a large number of people, a good number of whom had never even turned on a computer before, signed up to take college and university computer courses. That lead to a sudden explosion in the number of code monkey level programmers on the market. With easy tools like Visual Basic and the whole IT bubble these code monkeys got swallowed up into companies. For the cost of one programmer you could hire two or more of these code monkeys.
Several things resulted because of this.
First, all the low level positions where filled. When the bubble burst the demand went down, leaving companies with few entry level jobs to fill, and many code monkeys to choose from.
Second, many of those never used a computer people turned into code monkeys in 1-3 years turned out to be incompetent programmers. Real programmers needed to be brought in to clean up the messes, while companies reacted by thinking they needed to raise all programmer requirements (10 years of Java in 1999) to avoid getting more people with a piece of paper but no actual competence.
What we're left with is a market that does need programmers, but mostly needs those of the programmer analyst or software engineer variety. What few entry positions are left are instantly filled by the mountains of discarded code monkeys with 1-2 years "experience". The two factors also result in HR requirements being quite high.
A few years back (well almost 10 now) ordinary people started realizing that "computer people" where making a lot of money. The result was that a large number of people, a good number of whom had never even turned on a computer before, signed up to take college and university computer courses. That lead to a sudden explosion in the number of code monkey level programmers on the market. With easy tools like Visual Basic and the whole IT bubble these code monkeys got swallowed up into companies. For the cost of one programmer you could hire two or more of these code monkeys.
Several things resulted because of this.
First, all the low level positions where filled. When the bubble burst the demand went down, leaving companies with few entry level jobs to fill, and many code monkeys to choose from.
Second, many of those never used a computer people turned into code monkeys in 1-3 years turned out to be incompetent programmers. Real programmers needed to be brought in to clean up the messes, while companies reacted by thinking they needed to raise all programmer requirements (10 years of Java in 1999) to avoid getting more people with a piece of paper but no actual competence.
What we're left with is a market that does need programmers, but mostly needs those of the programmer analyst or software engineer variety. What few entry positions are left are instantly filled by the mountains of discarded code monkeys with 1-2 years "experience". The two factors also result in HR requirements being quite high.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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