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XTREEMMAK

YEAH I'M A NEWB! What of it sir?!

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Yeah, From reading and reading and reading I realized that I still have alot more to go in my programmer's development (but then of course I knew that but haven't admited to the newb in me. W.E. hit me then! lol) Anywayz here's the thing with me, As far as game developement goes, I started from Game Maker (by Mark Overmars), a 2D engine made for simple games for those with little or no programming experience and quite frankly I was preaty good :). Saddly I thought for my applications (the later ones that is) I felt I needed something more powerfull than that. So I moved on to Torque. Recently I've been studing the (so called) difficult manuals and I've been doing reasonably well (with the exception of getting an external script editor too late and me messing up the entire script from the tutorials lol). After reading though I realized that most people not only use C++ mostly for games (the part I knew somehow), but that they start from a tool like Visual C++ and work there way up to build there own engine specifically for that game (the part I didn't know). This made me ask myself should I really be getting dirty with Torque, or getting dirty with this nasty girl called "A thick son-of-a-b***h book called C++ Programming"? The only concern that I have is that one of the things I love about Torque 2D, is the particle engine. I meen even in GM I utilized there particle system! So then I'd have to program a particle system myself!?! The collision system and mapping is another problem! That's an entirly different equation in itself also! So I'm at a stand still right now...

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hmm.
I suppose. But seriously from scratch??? Sure it would be easier to get a third party engine for this (particles) but is it really necessary and has greater benifits to do it scratch? Ohh and another thing are the physics engines. Now I'm at the moment in school for C++, but physics eninges? Personally I haven't had to use any yet and am not sure if I'll be using it all together. I know alot of these 3D games are starting to utilize physics alot (ragdoll and such) but at the moment (and with my budget) I dont think I need to go that far to learn physics for games (at least right now).

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Will you benefit from learning from scratch? Certainly. Is it absolutely necessary? Definitely not. If you're comfortable and productive with the Torque 2d engine, then stick with it. Then, if you get to some stuff that you can't get accomplished with TorqueScript, you could certainly delve into the realm of C++, either learning from scratch or modifying the Torque engine code itself (though, warning, its pretty big and complex and will likely be overwhelming if you don't have a grasp of the language).

Anyway, just my $0.02

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In my opinion you need to ask yourself a question: How deep do I want to go?

If you're aim is just to create a game, then finding a good engine is the best route to go. You'll obviously need to learn some coding to use it, but not as intensily as programming your own engine. You might even create a working game.

But now if you are like me that always took his toys apart to see how they worked (never put them back together though) then you might be tempted at starting from scratch. One warning though, it takes a long time and sometimes the sense of accomplishment isn't much. But one day you'll sit back and look at the things you have done and say "I made that!". You'll also have a better understanding of programming.

The third option is both. Work on a game with your engine and all but dapple with the deep stuff on the side. I so often pick up Game Maker and create a simple game just to remind me that this is my end goal and to get a sense of accomplishment. While on the other side I work on my semi game engine.

Hope this helps

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So them it would seem that it'd probably be best to get my C++ polished and up. In that case I'll probably do what the articles say and let my first game be tetris. I meen I knew sooner or later I'd have to delv into the Torque SDK and recode and mess with the engine which unfortunatly is in C++, but it'd seem that it'd be better rather than deciphering someone elses code to create my own so I know exactly where everything is going, and I dont have to worry about alot of extra unneeded stuff. I know it seems like something that isn't of high significance but how hard is it to program a particle system? I know it has something to do with Direct X and stuff.

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Particle systems really aren't that difficult, once you have a good grasp on your language and, ultimately, your graphics api (i.e. Direct3d)

One of the nice things about them is that they can something that you can start out pretty simple and add features to as you get more understanding :)

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then also you'd have to understand how Direct3D works right? (which is something I still have to read up on. Not sure if that's an entirely different issue all together). Though actually looking at it, it could seem like a fun thing to do really :) Ultimatly I'd be in control of everything the game is doing without having to learn some guys XYZ engine first, then C++. Seems that I may just get back into this book again sooner than I thought.

As a matter of fact (funny story), I was one of those kids who liked to open things up and see how they worked and creat something new LOL. I remember tearing up a casio once in hopes of creating a game system lmao.

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I think Instruo nailed it. You were proficient with Game Maker and switched to Torque to get more functionality. Now take the time to get proficient with Torque and see what you can do without opening the hood. Make games with it. Once you start noticing functionality you would like to have, it becomes time to seriously consider using C++. At least, you'll be familiar with what Torque does, which will be invaluable when it comes to modifying it.

In the meantime, sure, you can learn C++, so as not to be a complete newbie the day you want to start modding Torque, but you shouldn't worry about being able to write whole games in it - yet.

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hmm tough call. So right now I have a choice of fully devoting to C++ and programming everything from ground up, or learning C++ then learn Torque Script, and decipher there engine and do my game that way. For some reason, the first choice seems like less of a headace.

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Quote:
Original post by XTREEMMAK
For some reason, the first choice seems like less of a headace.


Once you start having to deal with C++'s pickiness, you come to enjoy anything that's already done for you.

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Hello.

Here are my thoughts of it... I would like to see it from the side of motivation. In my around 20 years of game programming i learnd a lot of it. The best thingy is, when you are fiddeling with a new part of code and you get visual results pretty fast and easy. Nohting is more motivation to go on, when you have the first visual effects to see. So i think, first play around with Torque a little. This will definitily give you something to see and also to show others rather fast. When Torque dosen't give you any more, prepare to learn C++ and DirectX or OpenGL.

Just to give you an look into that what comes at you, when you plan to write something like torque from sratch.... With the step to C++ and DirectX there will be a lot of work. Especialy when you plan to make your own Engine. I'm writing on my own 3D-Gameengine just around 9 years ( 4 years for the prototype when i was studying informatik and 5 years now for the real thingy ) by now and i'm still not ready with it. I'm writing it in my spare time, completly from scratch. It is an 3D-Rolleplaying Gameengine with Client/Server support and an own Editor for the Worlddesign. At the Engine i'm now just around 174 differend C++ Classes and at the mark of 1,2MB of Sourcecode.

Greetings
Janaha

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I know there's an article on this, but does C get rid of some of that pickiness (I think I know a little of what your talking about regarding the pickiness. I just dont know how bad it could get)

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Quote:
Original post by XTREEMMAK
I know there's an article on this, but does C get rid of some of that pickiness


Not really no. C++ is actually significantly more convenient than C; it offers you more basic building blocks and a significantly better standard library (do use the C++ standard library, it'll save you much grief). The only place where C++ is stricter than C is with type checking, and that's a good thing. I kid you not.

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So a good even combination would seem like a good idea is what your saying. So probably go back and forth learning both C++ and Torque at the same time (while I'm also learning a bit of HTML right now BTW lol). I meen even with people who do commercial games or console bassed games, dont they have some form of ground to start on that's not just a blank screen; so they dont have to make the engine, then the game? I know it can be done both ways (engine game or just game) and in some ways they like to scrap a section or element that the predefined elements within the engine arent giving enough of and make there own (like a bad sound mapper). I think that's something you guys were telling me as well which is also why C++ becomes an important tool besides knowing the indidual's engine.

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Quote:
Original post by XTREEMMAK
So a good even combination would seem like a good idea is what your saying. So probably go back and forth learning both C++ and Torque at the same time (while I'm also learning a bit of HTML right now BTW lol).


Yup.

Quote:
I meen even with people who do commercial games or console bassed games, dont they have some form of ground to start on that's not just a blank screen; so they dont have to make the engine, then the game?


Some companies make their own engines and then license them to companies who don't want to bother.

Quote:
I know it can be done both ways (engine game or just game) and in some ways they like to scrap a section or element that the predefined elements within the engine arent giving enough of and make there own (like a bad sound mapper). I think that's something you guys were telling me as well which is also why C++ becomes an important tool besides knowing the indidual's engine.


That's exactly it.

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