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2d images given precise 3d behavior?

Sylon · 2006-11-14T07:41:37

Okay I'm back and this time with a new question about what someone suggested for me. Summary: I want to make a 2d *isometric* RPG with SNES-style art, but with the sprites and objects able to have pixel-precise collisions in 3D (not tile-based). So they can jump and walk over rounded hills and stuff. And pixel-precise shadows that bend around objects just like in 3d. (I'm no programmer, which is why I'm asking if it is possible to code this kind of game). Here is the previous topic. I also want my game to be rotatable every 90 degrees (not 360 like real 3d games). But this means we can see all around the objects (of course I must design all 4 sides to every object). Here's an example pic of a shadow bending on a 2d object: Using the above image as well, an example of a 3d pixel-precise collision in 2d would mean that, say there was a 2x2x2 cubic object, and a 40x40x40 cubic object. The big object would not be able to crawl under the short stubby branch that protrudes from the trunk, but the little object will. And when it does, the shadow of that stubby branch will pass overhead! Someone told me a voxel engine would be too taxing on computers. Then a friend told me about height maps. He said I could make grayscale maps for every object/tile in my game that told the comp how high the object is. Since I want my game to be just like 3d (and we can rotate to see behind objects), I figured just height might not do it because a 2d image can only show the front of an object, not the back. So I'm thinking RGB values to signify to the computer x, y, and z, width, depth, and height values. Here is a pic of my idea: The blue values signify height (z), the red signifies x, and the green signifies y. I gave their values in increments of 15 (15,30--225). The first multi-colored diamond (upper left) is a tile of the flattest height (so blue value=15 for everything), and at the very left is red=15, green=225. At the very right is red=225, green=15. At the bottom is red=225, green=225 and the top is red=15, green=15. Then in the upper right we introduce an object with height. A simple cube-like box. Now, the blue values are being changed, so we can see the height of the object. At the top of the cube, all blue values are 120. This way the comp knows at what x,y,z position each pixel is at. Now the hard part is if I wanted a crevice in the cube. Because if that crevice were facing the other way so we couldn't see it, and an object were to crawl into that crevice from behind, but we only gave RGB values for the *front* of the cube, the computer must somehow be told there is a crevice that the small object can crawl into. So I drew a cube with a little crevice. To tell the computer there is a hole inside that cube, I figure the only way to do it is to (in the bottom right of the image) make slices of that object, and then the computer must compile the slices together, to form the complete 3d object. So if I make my 2d art and apply these kinds of RGB gradient masks for each slice of every object, for every frame of every animation, etc, do any of you think that would be able to allow the 2d art to mimic 3d behavior? In other words would there be any way that code could take these images and compile the slices, mask the REAL artwork images with it all, and make 3d collisions/shadows work? (Not 360 degree rotations or zooming in and out though). And if yes, would this be just as taxing as voxel usage? I'm expecting to take decades here, if this works. I want to steer clear of using polygons for my game hehe! [Edited by - Sylon on November 6, 2006 2:45:56 PM]

General and Gameplay Programming Programming Unity

Started by Sylon November 06, 2006 09:47 AM

32 comments, last by Sylon 17 years, 5 months ago

Anonymous

November 13, 2006 05:36 PM

My impression is that you are doing far too much low-level detail planning far too early.
As you learn more about programming, doubtless you will learn many alternate approaches, some of them quite possibly better than this one.

So rather than try to conceptualize this algorithm, then learn to program; consider doing the reverse: learn to program, then once you have a good knowledge of the tools available, look at the algorithm with a better understanding of the performance factors and whatnot that will affect it.

Sylon

126

Author

November 13, 2006 06:50 PM

Gadzooks. Learn to program?! I dunno where to start! It's such a broad thing.

It's MAJOR tempting for me to be a "good coder". I've tried to learn some code before but man I was left in the dark.

How long did it take coders to get decent? Must have been years right? Do any of you think I could learn it by reading books and stuff and NOT going to college for it? Because currently I'm a senior in college, majoring in of course digital art.

I don't want to abandon this topic just yet! We're making so much progress! Look at all these geniuses!

Traveler

161

November 14, 2006 06:38 AM

Quote:Original post by Sylon
A. A team of people who can, if I don't learn to code it myself. I doubt I will learn to code it myself and you know why, haha. Hopefully I'll be able to pay the team. Otherwise it might have to be friends of mine who I can work intimately with.

Only if you're really lucky you'll find someone willing to help you. Whether that person is really qualified to create it, is another question.
If I were you, I really would invest some time in learning a language yourself. I realize it may be difficult, but then so is creating graphics and you seem to have that one covered pretty well.

Quote:Original post by Sylon
B. I have thought about this and came up with one conclusion: The game will be a hobby of mine so my life won't depend on it financially. (..) I FEEL like I'll keep interest in the project because I've planned much of it already and it excites the hell outta me, plus I know what my art will look like overall, and that also excites me.

Creating games is a hobby of mines as well. Its been so for like 10 years now. I have attempted several games, but only two were ever completed. And honestly, I completely understand it when you say that you feel you'll keep interest in it. I too have that feeling when it comes to new games.
The first game I ever finished (a space invaders clone) took me around 6 months, including the creation of graphics). The second game less than three. In between, I've started around 4 or 5 games, which were all abandoned. Failed interests and too difficult designs were only secondary reasons. Primary reason: a change in lifestyle!
When I created my first game, I was still at school. With plenty of spare time, I was able to learn a programming language (Delphi in my case) and Lightwave (graphics). Next to that, I also had time left to play games and socialize with friends.
However, that all changed when I finished school. Spare time suddenly dropped to only a small percentage of what its been when I was at school. I applied to a job where I would be behind a pc at least 6 to 8 hours a day. I'm sure you'll understand that by the time I get home, I don't always want to jump behind my own pc again to work on my next game.

Point is, currently you may have all the time in the world, but that will change. You may find a job or perhaps have a family that is going to take a whole lot of your time. It's unrealistic to think you'll spent the coming 10 years on this game.

Quote:Original post by Sylon
C. I've imagined that technology will be better yes. Wouldn't it make my game just run faster?

It probably will run faster yes. But like I said, many things you are now striving for to get in 2d, are by then very common in 3d with, quite possible, much better results.

Quote:Original post by Sylon
The reason I want it done in 2d (the hard way) is because I am in love with 2d video games, not 3d ones. There is still a cult following of 2d lovers (you most likely know that). It's not just nostalgia, it's for various reasons. I am basically, to the best of my knowledge, making the grandest game of pixel art ever made.

Fair enough.

Quote:Original post by Sylon
No other artists with either their silly opinions or their different art styles, just me and mine. No coders waiting and waiting, pressuring for me to finish my art--I'll find a dev team after I'm done with everything, hopefully ready to go, except for a few minor things I'd need to tweak for the code (that's why I'm trying to understand the major code issues with art right now).

Coding and creating the graphics are two things that preferably should go (nearly) simultaneously. It's very difficult to create them beforehand, without knowing how they are going to be used in the game itself. Especially if you don't have any idea about how to create such a game, and have to rely on what people tell you in a forum (no matter how good or bad that advice is)

You're asking a lot of questions here if something is possible, but unless you get the answer from someone who is also going to realize the actual solution, you are most likely going to face the situation some day where the programmer is going to say, "Right, I'm sure someone once told that it is possible, but I really don't know to get your feature xxx in the game."

Anyway, just my 2 cents. And please don't get me wrong. I completely understand your reasons and why you are doing it. I'm afraid though, that you're doing a lot of it for nothing (except for the learning aspect).

[Edited by - Traveler on November 14, 2006 7:38:33 AM]

[My gamedev diary]

Sylon

126

Author

November 14, 2006 07:41 AM

Well you guys have definitely convinced me to start learning to code!

Yeah I realize my family and job will take a lot of my time. I was thinking my free time would be devoted over decades, to the game. But yes of course the future is not predictable. I guess all I can do now is hope!

I'm currently reading a C++ tutorial. I didn't know notepad could be used to write the code (but not compile it). That's so cool!

2d images given precise 3d behavior?

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