Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:Original post by LessBread
More to your point, however, pointing out the irrelevance of minority leadership contradicts your call for better minority leaders.

No it doesn't. Asians aren't having the problems we're discussing here. I suspect it's due to cultural reasons. Like it or not, the child of poor Chinese immigrant straight outta Canton is likely to care more about education than an equally poor black kid straight outta Compton. Note that Asians are often stereotyped and although these days, many of the stereotypes are arguably more positive than those about Africans, this was certainly not always the case and is not exclusively true today.

The kid coming from Canton isn't an American yet.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:The problem is not intractable. I don't think blacks are sitting around waiting for racism to disappear.

I've heard some pretty weird stories about predominantly black inner city schools, although they are completely anecdotal. Most recently, a couple of months ago I spoke with someone whose relative wanted to teach in an inner city high school in DC. He was being idealistic and thought he could have an impact. What actually happened is that he was physically threatened and his students refuse to listen to him because he's white -- they tell him this directly.

So what do you want me to do about it? I'm not going to waste my time teaching in an inner city school, some other sucker can do that. I'm no more a racist than any other well-intentioned white guy here. If I'm in a position to make a hiring decision, I'm not going to judge someone by the color of their skin. I'll speak out against those who do. In other words, I'm going to behave as I should be expected to.

But what happens if I don't get any black applicants?

You'll make due with the applicants that you do get.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:
If they were then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The majority suffers from victim mentality just as much as any minority - that's where their feelings of resentment come from and the foundation that allows them to score points with euphemisms like "reverse discrimination" and the like.

I don't know that the majority does suffer from the same victim mentality. Yeah, whites will complain about the unfairness of Affirmative Action. Some might even feel victimized by the system when they're rejected for a job or denied admission to their dream school. But overall, I don't think whites feel victimized, they just think the system is unfair and not proving to be worthwhile. It might have to do with the fact that despite some success stories which whites are unlikely to encounter firsthand, the issue manifests itself as the same old boring black and white guys on TV arguing about it.

There's plenty of talk about the spread of victim culture in the USA and it's not limited to complaints about minorities as victims. Ironically, it's rise can be traced back to the Dirty Harry movies of the 1970's - or more bellicosely, Death Wish.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:
And all that rhetoric is useless if it doesn't inspire the entire nation to rise to the challenge. It's not just a black problem, it's an American problem. Hence my call for better leadership for everybody. When you say that you don't need better leadership, you're announcing that you're not a part of the larger community and ultimately, seperating yourself out like that is divisive.

You'd make a great politician. You didn't actually say anything. Provide me some concrete suggestions.

Divert money from the Pentagon into a massive schools building project that would double or triple the amount of schools in the nation. Put people in the surrounding communities to work on their construction in order to absorb the "surplus workforce". Raise the pay of teachers and massively expand teaching schools to accomodate the new demand for teachers created by the schools building project. That's just for starters.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:Approving a study could mean a lot of things. It could also mean that want to procrastinate rather than act.

It's a university system! That means bureaucracy! Studies have to be conducted. Committees will be formed. A plan must be formulated and agreed upon. Then paperwork will have to be filed. You know the drill.

Ultimately, it probably means they don't know what the hell to do. How would you go about recruiting more black students? The benefits of a college education should be pretty clear by now. How can we convince the disadvantaged to buckle down, study hard, and eliminate the idea that music or basketball is going to be their way out?

Of course I know the drill, that's why I raised that possibility. See my last remark. The way to convince disadvantaged youth that playing it straight will pay off in the end is to show them that it will pay off in the end.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:
Did the reforms of the 1960's and 1970's improve the lives of black Americans? Yes. Has the racial gap increased since 1980? Yes. That's proof enough to indicate that increasing the scope of reparations will halt the back slide and lead to more improvements. Of course, as you make clear, the FUD on this issue is great.

I think there's a difference between civil rights and reparations.

Sure, but the reforms of the 1960's went beyond civil rights.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:I think that would be a good start, but I don't think promoting education over material glorification should be a task limited to just the black community. The fact is that this country thrives on material glorification. Television constantly indoctrinates us with material glorification messages, broadcasting a new round of them every twenty minutes.

It's a problem that pervades American society. There's no doubt about it. I'm suggesting a position that would most help black leadership, however. Likewise, we would all be helped if we did away with materialism.

Authentic and credible leadership is always a boon to a community.

Quote:Original post by trzy

Quote:If you want to rip on Sharpton go ahead, but it seems to me that he gets most of his credibility from the corporate media establishment that looks to him as their token civil rights talking head.

What about Jesse Jackson? The NAACP? Are they really promoting the advancement of colored people?

Jackson, not so much anymore. The NAACP? Yes, they are.

Quote:Original post by LessBread
[...]

I suggest that you go back and read the link about reconstruction and the establishment of Jim Crow that I quoted from in the last post. Then maybe you'll forego comments about how the civil war was 150 years ago and so on. Freed slaves tried to just plain get on with their lives but were violently oppressed and legally relegated to second class citizenship for the next 100 years.

I'm quite familiar with the Jim Crow laws and their consequences. You still haven't explained why it's relevant. Yes, shit happened. Life was unfair. Boo fucking hoo.

Life is always unfair. Sorry, but the universe has never claimed that it owes you or anyone else a damned thing. Shit happens. Deal with it or go jump off a cliff, but stop -- please STOP -- banging on about mistakes that happened over a generation or two ago as if it were still happening today. Jim Crow laws have been gone since the 1960s, for fuck's sake. That's more than FORTY YEARS AGO.

How long do you intend to hit people over the head with your guilt stick? How long until you realise that the only sensible way to build a bridge is to build both sides at the same time and meet in the middle? Or do you seriously expect Joe Random White Boy to build the whole thing on his own?

At times like this, I wonder whether Black Americans really do want to strive towards integration and equality; it looks like many are quite content to wallow in self-pity.

"Send us your poor, your huddled masses!" Remember that? How many of those who arrived during that period must pay the penalty for crimes committed by people they have never had any connection to? How can you sit there and tell me, to my face -- well, screen -- that every "White Man" is guilty of the crimes you allege? How many Irish, Chinese, Hispanic immigrants, how many Native Americans -- yes, they're generally lumped in with the "White People" label too -- do you think had anything to do with it? How many had any real voice back then?

And you call us racist? You say WE generalise? Sheesh!

Quit blaming the "White Man". Point the finger of blame at the English if you must -- we're used to it (and it'll probably be as close to the truth as you get) -- and move on.

Quote:
I should also point out that "gangsterism" has been a part of mainstream American culture since at least the 1930's. So after you finish complaining about black music videos, don't forget to complain about James Cagney, Edward G. Robinson and on and on.

I haven't seen many 1930s gangster movies where the gangsters were portrayed as role models. Sure, kids liked them, but kids go through a rebellious phase anyway, so that's expected.

Quote: And as a half-Italian you ought to feel the sting of movies made by Coppola and Scorsese and complain about them as well. That damned Al Pacino!!!

Sorry, but that's just pathetic; you're actually supporting my point! Not a single one of those movies glorified the lifestyle. Yes, they dramatised, but they didn't make a whole bunch of kids want to be hitmen. I've certainly never seen kids dress up in spats and cheap suits and demanding "Shaddapa you face!" ringtones.

I certainly don't recall hearing Dean Martin singing about going to jail and making it sound cool. Nor have I heard the mythical Caruso top-ten hit single where he croons lovingly about the many people he 'hit' while a kid.

Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Again, when dealing with merit, this shouldn't be an issue, should it? IOW, we were talking about Blacks and Whites getting jobs and how likely they are to get certain jobs. So are we saying now that bias in one's tastes is normal in choosing a potential employee --as opposed to merit. Doesn't such things lead to race-based decisions which could lead hiring practices to be at the very least seemingly racist?

I hope you don't mind my interjecting, but I've actually been involved in hiring and firing people, so I'd like to add my own observations of the process.

The foremost question the hirer will be asking himself isn't "What qualifications does this guy have?" By the interview stage, you already know the answer to this: it's what the résumé is for.

No: at the interview stage, the question that is most pressing on the interviewer's mental To-Do list is: "Would I want to spend my every working day in the same office as this person?" THAT is what the interview is for. If you're being interviewed at all, you've already passed the "qualifications" stage. And, since most job application forms these days tend to ask your ethnicity, they'll already have a pretty good idea about your skin colour too.

Now clearly that question is obviously highly subjective and it's one reason why the "panel" style of interviewing is found: it tends reduce the effects of extreme personal bias.

I have personal traits which I know will mesh badly with certain other personality types. I also have to consider my other colleagues and employees: how will they get on with this person? These are important issues for an employer. Low staff morale can seriously affect your business if it's not checked and remedied.

The next step is to determine whether the applicant really does know what he's talking about. I find that many qualifications aren't worth the paper they're written on. (Which is probably a bit rich coming from someone who only has three A Levels and eight O Levels to his name.)

Skin colour doesn't come into it at all. At the last place I worked, all but three staff were from African nations. As long as the applicant can demonstrate the appropriate skills, clarity of communication and a compatible personality, I have no problem working with anybody.

Personality is key. And this is, I regret to say, the point where I illustrate my other criticism regarding the current fashion for the "gangsta" lifestyle: I have actually had applicants enter an interview wearing a f*cking hoodie, complete with all the bling and other cliché trappings of that lifestyle. Now this, on its own, isn't a showstopper. That -- and this is the reason I refused him the job -- was the "fuck you" attitude he brought into the interview with him too.

I'm not kidding. People really are thick enough to try this and believe they'll get the job. Not with me they won't.

If that's racism, then colour me racist.

Quote:Original post by kryat
none of this would be nessicary, if people didn't suck.

I vote that this man be elected the first leader of the New World Order. He will lead us all to enlightenment. Hail Eris!