Don't even think about making a D&D game anymore!
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I've played a fair number of D&D based games over the years, but I have to say that the system doesn't translate well enough into a computer game. Developers are forced to make modifications to the game system and forced to model their characters after the ugly monster manual pictures. The end product is an ugly, bug filled, game with a poorly implemented D&D rules set.
Take a look at NWN2 for example. The game is so far behind the times in terms of modern game engines (no jumping, swimming, climbing, flying, horses, etc...) Sure the graphics look good but the game is slow and you basically need a personal Cray just to play it. The multiplayer aspect of this version is basically useless.
DDO – this game only comes close to feeling like D&D. It doesn’t actually do a good job of it.
ToEE this game was full of bugs. It was a good game (if you had installed all the aftermarket patches), but it used a turn based system for combat. No multiplayer.
Why make a D&D game when you know:
1. You are going to be forced to make modifications to the game system
2. You will be told how your artwork should look from Wizards of the coast
3. Atari will rip you off and screw the marketing of it.
4. Most people who don’t understand D&D will be confused by the rules.
5. The rules are not balanced enough for online play (MMO)
6. The development cycle is way too long
7. Way too many bugs to deal with because the rules are full of exceptions and odd situations.
Don’t get me wrong I would love to see a developer actually get it right for once. But to this very day they have NOT. They would most likely have to spend 4-5 years on the project and no one has that kind of time anymore.
The D&D license issue is another problem. Perhaps if wizards opened the game up a bit and didn’t just give the sole authority to Atari there would actually be some good D&D based games. Oh well as long as that stupid company has the license this situation will continue.
I've played a few D&D based games myself as well, and I prefer them to pen & paper. You don't need to understand the rules to enjoy the game, whereas with pen & paper you can't even play if you don't. Also, what exactly does jumping, swimming, climbing, flying and horses mave to do with being a modern engine, and what real benefit would they give the game? Would they enhance the role-playing experience or would they just be there to satisfy the action junkies?
Most of the 'problems' you list apply to games in general and has nothing to do with D&D. All games are prone to bugs in one form or another, publishers rarely play nice, most large games take ridiculously long development times. Even the licensing issues you mention aren't specific to D$D games, take a look at any game based off a movie.
Btw, monsters are *supposed* to be ugly [smile]
Most of the 'problems' you list apply to games in general and has nothing to do with D&D. All games are prone to bugs in one form or another, publishers rarely play nice, most large games take ridiculously long development times. Even the licensing issues you mention aren't specific to D$D games, take a look at any game based off a movie.
Btw, monsters are *supposed* to be ugly [smile]
I think another problem is the D&D license itself in some ways.
When you play a game with the official stamp of approval, you're expecting a certain D&D "Feel". The players demand that it follow canon, and the license holder probably makes the same demand and a lot of dictation to maintain brand integrity..
But I agree..you can't blame the problems of those games you listed on the D&D ruleset.
When you play a game with the official stamp of approval, you're expecting a certain D&D "Feel". The players demand that it follow canon, and the license holder probably makes the same demand and a lot of dictation to maintain brand integrity..
But I agree..you can't blame the problems of those games you listed on the D&D ruleset.
You mentioned NWN2 not having actions such as jumping, climbing and swimming. However, that would be due to technological limitations in my honest opinion. To have the ability to jump and climb, and to do a good job of it, you would want a multi-level walk mesh.
If you look at NWN's walk-meshes which for the most part are not multi-leveled, look at their massive sizes (in exterior areas) already. With the players being in different areas and having to keep all those areas loaded up on the server, they couldn't choose to make it even more machine demanding. Already as it is, computers/servers available to the average NWN2 player are not going to be able to handle anything more advanced, and in the community there has already been concern at the moment most people can't do so with what they're given already.
Horses were supposed to have been in, but they had to cut them out for now due to development time limitations. I don't work in the industry... but I have to imagine that's typical that lots of features get cut out or sloppily done due to being pushed by their publishers etc.
Anyways, I think most complicated systems in general are hard to bring to the PC perfectly. I don't really see it being that illogical that a computer can't represent something anywhere near to something that you can simply write down on a piece of paper that came from your imagination.
I would agree that intellectual property can be a major hassle for developers especially when limited to stick to a certain 'quality' as you've pointed out. Though there isn't anything a developer can do about that, other than maybe come up with some of their own original content.
Well hopefully someday though, in terms of DnD someone will get it right, or enough people will have banged their heads on the wall hard enough to realise that we need to avoid bringing it to the PC after all and keep it to the table tops. Only time will tell.
On a little side unrelated note I would like to point out one thing that made NWN1 so popular with its fanbase was the ability to make their own worlds/content. That is one thing NWN1 and hopefully NWN2 did well, was let players bring their own creations to life even though there may have been many limitations and bumps to work around. That is the series' true beauty, to let a group of people come together and share their stories/ideas.
If you look at NWN's walk-meshes which for the most part are not multi-leveled, look at their massive sizes (in exterior areas) already. With the players being in different areas and having to keep all those areas loaded up on the server, they couldn't choose to make it even more machine demanding. Already as it is, computers/servers available to the average NWN2 player are not going to be able to handle anything more advanced, and in the community there has already been concern at the moment most people can't do so with what they're given already.
Horses were supposed to have been in, but they had to cut them out for now due to development time limitations. I don't work in the industry... but I have to imagine that's typical that lots of features get cut out or sloppily done due to being pushed by their publishers etc.
Anyways, I think most complicated systems in general are hard to bring to the PC perfectly. I don't really see it being that illogical that a computer can't represent something anywhere near to something that you can simply write down on a piece of paper that came from your imagination.
I would agree that intellectual property can be a major hassle for developers especially when limited to stick to a certain 'quality' as you've pointed out. Though there isn't anything a developer can do about that, other than maybe come up with some of their own original content.
Well hopefully someday though, in terms of DnD someone will get it right, or enough people will have banged their heads on the wall hard enough to realise that we need to avoid bringing it to the PC after all and keep it to the table tops. Only time will tell.
On a little side unrelated note I would like to point out one thing that made NWN1 so popular with its fanbase was the ability to make their own worlds/content. That is one thing NWN1 and hopefully NWN2 did well, was let players bring their own creations to life even though there may have been many limitations and bumps to work around. That is the series' true beauty, to let a group of people come together and share their stories/ideas.
Quote:Original post by 00Kevin
Don’t get me wrong I would love to see a developer actually get it right for once. But to this very day they have NOT.
Baldur's Gate? Planescape?
Unless you can explain those two, the rest of your post isn't worth the electrons it's composed of.
Quote:Original post by 00Kevin
Take a look at NWN2 for example. The game is so far behind the times in terms of modern game engines (no jumping, swimming, climbing, flying, horses, etc...) Sure the graphics look good but the game is slow and you basically need a personal Cray just to play it. The multiplayer aspect of this version is basically useless.
The quality of a game's design is not entirely defined in the details that the gameplay symbolizes but in the elegance and appreciability of how the game plays.
There are no jumping, swimming, climbing, flying or horsie mechanics in a _LOT_ of games but that doesn't keep them from being nifty/entertaining. The presence of absence of such mechanics have very little to do with whether D&D is the dice mechanic behind the game's "Role-Playing" (I would better describe it as "Roll-Playing") system.
I'm going to go ahead and pretend you didn't mention the "graphics" as if it were of gameplay significance. Graphics are important for a game to be appreciable but they are not intrinsically tied to the design.
The D&D system is absolutely not condusive to computerization. Its mechanics are nonsensical smatterings of antiquated gameplay concepts stolen from an unrelated table-top game world. We should definitely move away from the D&D system but the reasons you listed are none of the reasons why it is true. D&D's rules were the wrong tool for the job when D&D was first invented and that's moreso the case when considering a computerized game.
Computers are mathematical machines wheras humans typically aren't. D&D was designed for people who prefer rules lawyering over elegant, scalable game mechanics. There are a lot of arbitrary and sometimes counterintuitive elements to the D&D system that make it incredibly difficult to streamline into a purely mathematical gameplay mechanic that computerization is best for. So concepts like the "ability" bonus/penalty, the relationship between abilities and leveling, and the redundancy of the leveling mechanic, the dice rolling itself, and a vast majority of the "feats" are applied in ways ill-suited for computerization and sometimes even for table-top gameplay --- thereby demanding the arbitration of an intelligent Dungeon Master.
I could go on for hours about how D&D is a clumsy behemoth of beached-humpback proportions but that would be a waste of everyone's time.
D&D was created the way it was because there weren't computers readily available at the time to abstract away all of the rule complexity. It's a role-playing game, not an avatar-controlling game. It is all about people interacting with each other on a very personal level. The most interactive/immersive computer RPG ever created has nothing on a group of friends sitting around a table using their imaginations.
>> jumping, climbing and swimming
NW2 required none of those things, so why would they be in the game?
NW2 required none of those things, so why would they be in the game?
>> jumping, climbing and swimming
NW2 required none of those things, so why would they be in the game?
NW2 required none of those things, so why would they be in the game?
Quote:Original post by joanusdmentia
I've played a few D&D based games myself as well, and I prefer them to pen & paper. You don't need to understand the rules to enjoy the game, whereas with pen & paper you can't even play if you don't.
Not quite true. Players can play without knowing the rules as long as the GM does. It's more work for him but it's certainly possible.
Quote:and what real benefit would they give the game? Would they enhance the role-playing experience or would they just be there to satisfy the action junkies?
I tend to hop over objects from time to time or jump from place to place to relieve the tedium. Not necessary of course but I always seem to feel restricted when I can't jump, even if the jump isn't actually useful in the game.
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