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Metron

Shooter games

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Metron    268
Hi, I wonder if shooter games such as Xenon 2 or Battle Squadron are games that would still work those days ? I mean, everyone seems to target whether on first person/third person shooter or rts games... I think shooters are quite cool for consoles. Quick in, quick play, quick out. What are your opinions ? Kind regards, Metron

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civguy    308
I love vertical scrollers. Tyrian, Rapton, Reap, Xenon all of them were great games. In fact two weeks ago I played through Tyrian once again . I love other type of top-down shooters too, like Subspace.. Heck, the only 3d action game I''ve truely enjoyed is Quake 1 (and HL until I finished it).

I think players just want more from their games these days. No game developer even considers making a traditional vertical shooter anymore, because it wouldn''t sell. Vertical shooters are considered to be "old" games from the early ''90s and publishers aren''t interested in them anymore. Traditional shooters are just too simple by current standards, even though I love to play them. But maybe I''m just an oddball..

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I think you would have to include the 3D edge some how. I''m not saying it can''t be a verticle scroller shoot''em up but consider this... Remember in Battle Squadron how you''d come across those holes in the ground that you could fly into. Now imagine flying into those holes in true 3D so the entire surface of the world moves as you enter as to maintain the same persective on your craft. There''s definity a lot that can be done by crossing verticle/horizonal scrollers with 3D imo.

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

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Metron    268
Hi,

in fact I am currently working on a design
document for this kind of game. This is why I
asked the above question.

civguy: The shooter genre, if you look at it
as a quick in - quick fight - quick out like
game, must be simple to play. You don''t have
much opportunity to teach stuff to the player.
He discovers the elements of the game, such as
the weapons and the ennemies, while playing the
game. I wonder what players would like to see
implemented into a shooter to enhance their gaming
experience... perhaps my reply to Paul gives a
little answer to this :

Paul : The 3D idea was the first one that hit me when
I started to think of the game I would like to do.
In fact I would like to use 3D in various situations
such as slightly pitched view (no extra cost of
programming) or the situation you mentioned.
3D would also allow me to display in a more accurate
way the effects of the weapons. Imagine a vehicle
blown to the side by an explosion not far from it. Or
trees that bend to the side when a big explosion wave
hits them... Current sound and high end graphic cards
would allow to pull the gamer deeper into the situation
and reward him with stunning graphics...

Kind regards,
Metron

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Hase    313
Ummmh... why use "real" 3d at all? I´ve thought about using 3d models instead of sprites, but it´s a huge effort and not really worth the trouble.....

hmm... i think that these games are dead, even if i´d enjoy playing one now and then.... but i guess most people want something a lot more flashy, and to be honest, this kind of shooter has been done over and over again (besides, we´ve all played them at the arcades until our fingers bled).

My team did something like that (2d-parallax scroller), just a prototype, more of a learning project.
feel free to check it out

http://www.geocities.com/hase13/projects.html

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Metron, how did i guess you were working on one of these games. Best of luck and eat lots of fruit ok. I''m serious, fruit is yummo scrumo!

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

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Metron    268
Actually, I''m just writing the concept since my real work
consists in doing other peoples games And bananas are the
best ones

Hase : Well, I think the effort is almost the same. When doing
it in 2D you''ll have to create and animate the graphics, too.
And when you can rely on an already finished engine, you don''t
even have to do heavy programming...

Kind regards,.
Metron

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Biere et punk    122
Well... Have any of you played Einhander? Its on the playstation... made around 2 yrs ago by Squaresoft.

Really fast action, and very good 3d visuals (for the psx anyway) with different angle of view depending on the situation...

Biere et punk

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Hase    313
Metron,

quote:
Original post by Metron

Hase : Well, I think the effort is almost the same. When doing
it in 2D you''ll have to create and animate the graphics, too.
And when you can rely on an already finished engine, you don''t
even have to do heavy programming...



At least based on my experience i can say that 2d is waaay faster (from the artists point of view).
And usually it will look better too, if you go through the trouble of doing all the sprites by hand (especially on lower resolutions).

Programming load is a little less for 2d, but not all that much, if you use 3d-features as well... (transparency and so on)

an yet again my ego commands me to point you to screenshots of my game:
http://www.geocities.com/hase13

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Eight    122
quote:
Original post by Metron

civguy: The shooter genre, if you look at it
as a quick in - quick fight - quick out like
game, must be simple to play. You don''t have
much opportunity to teach stuff to the player.
He discovers the elements of the game, such as
the weapons and the ennemies, while playing the
game. I wonder what players would like to see
implemented into a shooter to enhance their gaming
experience...



I''m a bit of a fan of 2d shoot ''em ups too. But there''s no way you could convince me to spend £30 on one.

If you want to do a 2d game, how are you going to attract players? Without the daft 3d graphics, you may find it difficult to persuade people that there''s much of a game there.

You''d need a ton of innovative features and some clever marketing. Not easy things to get.

Eight

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Bouncy bouncy bouncy. Toodly dumb, where''s my bum. Weeeeeeeeeee.. bouncy bouncy bouncy i''ve got a rocket full of c#m.

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

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furby100    102
Alright Mr. Cunningham, you''re coming with us. Here, put these handcuffs on. Now, get in the car, no, Mr Cunningham, in the back of the car, yes, now I''m just going to drive you to a cell so you can think and reflect on what you have just done.



Just because you''re outnumbered doesn''t mean you''re wrong.


sharewaregames.20m.com

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I think i should edit that but i can''t do it. Can someone help me, i''m struggling here.

A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew

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Metron    268
Eight: In fact the 2D stuff is to drop in such a game nowadays.
And I think when you''re doing it in 3D (specially when using ie.
a GeForce3 based card), you could add a lot of neat effects on
the graphics side as you could add more realistic physics. The
vehicle that is blown to the side with realistic animations is
just one example. Others are real good looking water that is
splashing when you shoot on it or when something falls into it.

You could change the camera position to ie. the back of the
vessel to give a new feeling of game to the player... all that
is difficult to do when you''re doing it in 2D.

Hase: I wonder why doing it in 2D should be faster ? If you''re
using the old "Deluxe Paint"-style to do it, your point could
be valid, but today, you have to produce biig biiiig models that
could be used as advertisers and press release images. So you''ll
have to do the 3D stuff anyways. I admit that the effort to do
is less once you limit yourself to 2D since you only would have
to do everything "one sided", but this also means that you can
forget the physical simulation and the changing camera perspec-
tives...


I would like to ask another question :

Given that a new console (X-Box) will see day in more or less
near future, would it be possible that :

a) developing an AAA shooter for the X-Box and the PC could
bring the shooter genre back to light ? I''m thinking here of
ie. "Baldur''s Gate" that brought back RPGs...

b) if it is well done, it could be a killer app for the console ?


Kind regards,
Metron

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Eight    122
quote:
Original post by Metron

Eight: In fact the 2D stuff is to drop in such a game nowadays.
And I think when you''re doing it in 3D (specially when using ie.
a GeForce3 based card), you could add a lot of neat effects on
the graphics side as you could add more realistic physics. The
vehicle that is blown to the side with realistic animations is
just one example. Others are real good looking water that is
splashing when you shoot on it or when something falls into it.

You could change the camera position to ie. the back of the
vessel to give a new feeling of game to the player... all that
is difficult to do when you''re doing it in 2D.

Metron


Sorry I may have misunderstood the conversation a little. I just assumed when you said you were interested in shoot ''em ups like Xenon 2, you meant to do it in 2d.

???

Anyway, as you said, if it was done in 3D you could add lots of fancy effects to sell the title. You''d just have to make sure the frantic gameplay (as provided by the 2d shooters) remains.

The gameplay was always the key.

E

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Hase    313
Metron

i think you didnt quite understand my point. When I´m talking about 2d I mean REAL 2d. And that does not include using 3d models, a 3d engine and a "2d" viewport (ie. from the side or above).
That qualifies as a 3d game, even if the camera is fixed.

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Mechaman    122
If you''re really and truly planning to do a shmup, then you will need to do a lot more research. Shmups didn''t stop evolving at Tyrian or Xenon 2, y''know. SHMUPS!, and the people there are your friends.

2D-done-with-3D for consoles:

R-Type Delta(PSX): Everything that Einhander had, with classic R-Type play, and better effects.

G-Darius(PSX): Innovative 3D backgrounds, plus best side-scroll boss-fights of all time.

RayStorm/RayCrisis(PSX): Overhead scrolling, perennial Z-level lock-on weapons. Crisis has slightly better game design and graphics whilst being much shorter, IMHO.

ThunderForce V(Saturn/PSX): Beautiful Technosoft warping backgrounds; combined polygon-and-sprite effects. Note that you lose a lot of the effects in the PSX re-release(and gain some FMVs, plus you have to tolerate Vic Ireland''s crap "tweakings" in the American version).

Radiant Silvergun(Saturn): Probably the most innovative gameplay in a shmup, even if it''s only a boss-fest. The background effects must be seen to be believed.

Mars Matrix(Dreamcast): More innovative gameplay; coupled with the insane bullet-dodging of Giga Wing or DoDonPachi. Due to be released in the States fairly quickly.

2D-alone for consoles:

Gunbird 2(Dreamcast): Not a polygon to be found here. Illustrates Psikyo''s sense of character design vs. special effects, as well as what difficulty should be.

Bangai-Oh(Dreamcast, N64): Treasure''s most insane game yet; a side-scrolling version of Smash TV. Supposedly the N64 version is better.

Rayforce/Layer Section/Gun Lock/Galactic Attack(Saturn/arcade): The first hint of 3D-ish effects with straight 2D graphics. Illustrates the power capable with optimized rotation and scaling effects. First appearance of lock-on lasers. And killer Zuntata music.

Soukyugurentai(Saturn, PSX): Mixes Layer Section gameplay with very well tuned graphics and design. Primary sprites are in straight 2D, with polygonal targeting webs and backgrounds.

Gradius Gaiden(PSX): Straight 2D play with 3D effects providing transparency, rotation, etc(how you would probably have to do it on a PC).

Battle Garegga(Saturn): No fancy effects here, just solid 2D gameplay.

Shippu Mahou Daisakusen(Kingdom Grandprix, Saturn): Again, solid 2D effects, and also tries mixing the shmup genre with overhead racing.

Arcade:
Some can be found reviewed at SHMUPS!; try Metal Black, DonPachi, DoDonPachi, Gun Frontier, Armed Police Batrider, Blazing Star, Pulstar, Cybattler, Strikers 1945 series, the list goes on, etc.

2D-done-with-3D on PC:

Idinaloq: Mixes Raystorm backgrounds, some Silvergun weapons, and presents them in an easy-to-swallow package. Only PC shmup where they did an actual opening theme/movie.

Kamui. (download): Proving that you don''t need the latest DirectX, or even a 3D card, to do Layer Section-style effects. Only modern shmup so far that runs with no graphic problems under WinNT 4.0.

RefleX. (download.): Transparency effects to make a strong man weep.

Astro Assembler: Excellent example of mixing polygons and 3D-card-enhanced 2D graphics. Also bloody hard as befitting a shmup, and betrays a bit of Bitmap Bros. influence.

Excess Fraction (download): Innovative gameplay(rather like Psyvariar), plus more scaling effects.

Rally Raid (download): A curious fusion of Metal Black and DoDonPachi; with some lovely backgrounds.

XTOM, done by Jamie(makers of Axis). Graphics are simplistic, but shows off some sorely-needed camera tricks(plus differing play-styles depending on player selected.

Other Japanese PC shmups that don''t have links(but you can find them on Vector): Junker''s Ingot, Magical Shoot, Planet Force, NinjaX, Zugya, Xadlak, Final(Last?) Dimension, Nemesis Crisis.

If you can find it, see if you can pick up a copy of "The Reap". Really hard to find, but several people I know swear by it.

Build a great game and people will buy it; Crystal Interactive seems to do well with only a USD $15 pricetag. Shmups aren''t dead by any stretch of the word--only people''s perceptions are.

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Metron    268
Hi,

that''s what I thought...

I know some of the games you cited Mechamen, but since the last ones I really played were Xenon 2 and Battle Squadron, I cited them as my primary examples...

I took a look at some of the examples you gave and they are all quite cool...

I''m happy that there are more shtmups than I thought... and since I only started to work on the concept, I still have some time to do some research.

Kind regards,
Metron

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