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r1tual

Why is all the new Microsoft technology C# junk?

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I thought ASP was maybe worthwhile to start learning. C# and VB are the only real supported languages. I thought the Windows Presentation Foundation and the rest of AVALON looked like it would be a step up from Winsock2 and WIN32. The only real supported languages are VB and C#. .NET FRAMEWORK 3.0, built for C# programmers. Why arent these things built for C++ programmers? Something about C# turns me off, so I have not tried to use any of these new technologies. They say C++\CLI is supported in some cases but documentation is NILL. And why C++/CLI and not C++? Are the CLI extensions necessary? I dont think so. At least from what I see. What gives and what is wrong with C++? Why was C# invented? And why does Microsoft like it so much? It makes me sick. And are there people out there that actually know C#? What planet do they come from?

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Original post by r1tualWhy was C# invented? And why does Microsoft like it so much? It makes me sick. And are there people out there that actually know C#? What planet do they come from?


Money. Money. Yes, Earth. You'll actually find lots of people here who like and use C#, I'm not one of them though (only because I haven't invested the time to learn it)

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First off, say good bye to your rating. I'm not de-rating you, but everyone else will.

C# is a Microsoft product, it is almost as fast ass C++, has a robust managed system, and allows for incredibly fast development. Visual Basic is the same way.

There's always going to be a way to port back and forth between C++ and C#, one way or the other. However, the speed difference between C# and C++ is becoming less and less evident, and since your dealing with Microsoft systems, there going to encourage their products.

Also, C# has the ability to leave managed land and get pointers and all that stuff. So, it's fairly flexible like C++, not as much though.

In other words, as many people agree, C++ is "dying." It's large user base is slowly converting to managed languages, as they making programming much less of a hassle.

As for me, I'm a C++ fan, and always will be. You can create your own managed stuff with C++ if that floats your boat, but C++ has a large user base, flexibility, "functionality," and power.

Basically:

C++ pwns, but C# does pwn too.

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It's probably because Microsoft is trying to get everyone to use C# and spending most of their resources on it.
Look at VB it's not being as supported for XNA either so don't feel so left out.
And there is dwindling resource for VB programmers also.
Thus maybe you should get hint from microsoft and move to C# or to another platform ie mac/linux?
Oh and there is nothing preventing you from using managed code with C++ as this book shows it just that if you are going to use managed code it easier to just use C#/VB from the get go.

p.s. And as Charles Petzold says "I'd rather get a root canal before I have to switch back to using C/C++ than C#"

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Surprisingly enough, you can probably find a C# user not too far from your own home. Quite a bit of people use C#, simply because it is not as low-level, and allows the programmer to design what they want to, quite a bit faster. Sure, an advanced C++ guru could probably crank out a nicely made program faster than a newer C# programmer, but the C# language handles quite a bit of information behind the scenes that make things a lot easier on not the programmer. When things are made easier for the programmer, he can develop a nice program in a shorter amount of time and devote more of that time to adding extra features. In C++ you have more control over the program you are developing, but it will also take longer to develop a program in C++ than it would be to develop that same program in C#, assuming that what you are developing is supported by both languages.

I personally prefer to use C++ because I find that it is easier for me to use and develop in. I think that Microsoft saw some of the drawbacks to developing software in C++(and any programming language) and tried to address them in C#. Why they decided to develop their newer technologies to support only C# and/or VB.NET still remains to be answered.

Hope this gives you a somewhat more open view on the subject,
-Wynter Woods(aka Zerotri)

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Original post by r1tual
It makes me sick.
As long as we're sharing personal ailments, let me tell you what makes me sick.

There are newbies coming to this site every day. Many of them don't know the first thing about game programming; many don't understand programming. Some of these go on to be well liked and respected members. Others are pummeled into the ground, ridiculed, and more recently, rated into oblivion.

What distinguishes the two groups is the attitude they take on the forums. Those who are successful constantly seek to better themselves, to learn more, and to become more skilled. They may have terrible misconceptions and misunderstandings, but they are willing to address those problems and move forward. They tend to exude a positive, inquisitive attitude towards everything, and they are responded to in kind. I enjoy helping these people, and as they branch out into areas I've never touched, that help often becomes mutual.

And then there's the failures' group. These peoeple are locked into their own narrow minded, hopelessly flawed mindsets. They reject new technologies and techniques for any reason they can find. The worst of the lot actively seek to criticize those in the first group, the ones who are exploring new things and learning new things. Instead of exploring new technology and new ideas, they will attack them loudly and angrily, insisting that anyone who is interested is a fool. The people in this group make me sick. They're a black mark that makes the rest of the community look bad, and I am sickened every time one of them decides to spout even more misguided self-righteous nonsense.

Guess which group you fall in.

It occurs to me that you might need some help with that last bit, so here's a hint. The first group, the one with the positive mindset, does not include you.

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"[...] and what is wrong with C++?"

C evolved from what, BCPL? C++ extended that by hacking in classes and OOP, C++/CLI extended that by hacking in GC and .NET access. The combined monstrositiy I don't feel dignified addressing. Type safety, reflection, classes, metaprogramming... the kind of stuff that many languages have taken for granted were slabbed atop the original C in haphazard, horribly integrated fashion. Ever tried passing a member function to a non-member function pointer? Completely rebuilt your own introspection mechanism since the language didn't support it? Explicitly casted a string to std::string just so you could concatinate it? Had a buffer over/underflow? Been bitten by std::vector relaxing it's contiguous-array-of-T guarantee for std::vector<bool>? Wondered why there's no resizable bitset class? Tried to std::fstream::open a std::string? std::wfstream::open a (const wchar_t*)? Wondered why std::wfstream::operator<<(const wchar_t*) narrow()s everything? Been bitten by std::list<T>::splice(where,list,begin,end) being constant time on one platform and linear time on another? Ditto for std::list<T>::size? Wondered why the standard wouldn't freakin' decide on one or the other, and not leave programmers unable to depend on either due to it's indecisiveness?

What's wrong with C++? That's entirely the wrong question. What's right about it? And what's wrong with C# that C++ isn't even worse at? Microsoft has the right idea, starting with a fresh new slate, even if I think C# falls woefully short of the mark of what the next language should be.

What makes me sick is people like you pretending C++ is, you know, actually a decent language. I probably invoked undefined behavior just writing this post, for hells sake. There will come a day when I remember C++ like I remember COBOL. In nightmares from which I awaken screaming, in the middle of the night, cold sweatdrops trickling down my face. I will cry out for my mother to comfort me, as a grown man.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some C++ code I need to work on. Debug, specifically, as if that wasn't blatently obvious from the fact that it's C++.

[Edited by - MaulingMonkey on December 14, 2006 7:32:48 PM]

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Original post by Promit
And then there's the failures' group. These peoeple are locked into their own narrow minded, hopelessly flawed mindsets. They reject new technologies and techniques for any reason they can find.


I can see rewriting C\C++ to fix it's problems, but creating an entirely new programming language with an entirely new syntax is a bit too far.

Maybe you can explain why Visual Basic was invented.

How about Java?

I personally do not understand why these programming langauges exist with such popularity.


I never seen anything really wrong with C\C++. Not any of the problems Mauling Monkey pointed out. When I program in C++ I find no fault in the programming language that prohibits me from developing whatever program I decide to create.


So why such a drastic new language like C# instead of some kind of "Fixed" C++?

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C# and .NET just make things a lot easier. WPF, for example, heavily relies on .NET's reflection features in deserializing XAML; this would be considerably harder in C++ due to its lack of reflection.

Give C# a try. Write a simple program in it, perhaps a web file downloader, an image converter, an IRC bot, or Tetris. I think once you do you'll change your mind.

You can't judge something until you understand it.

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Original post by r1tual
Maybe you can explain why Visual Basic was invented.

How about Java?
I'll answer both of those if you can give me a coherent explanation of why C++ was invented.

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