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DakeDesu

Angry note on the rating system

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Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
"...it is a feedback mechanism to let you know what others think of your posting habits..." I would assume this is self regulation/censorship(or community regulation), but it just doesn't work out like that.
Actually, in our experience it actually does do a pretty good job of doing that. If I may direct your attention to Ravyne's post just a few above yours:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ravyne
The rating system has never, ever stopped me from posting anything I've wanted to say, though it has in some cases encouraged me to word a post to be more clear or less scathing (unintentional as it may have been.) If it encourages others to be more clear in their post and to abide netiquet more carefully then its definately a good thing.
We've heard plenty of others say this in the past, and judging purely from the content of posts we can see that this is the case. I don't know if you were actually around as an unregistered user prior to the registration of your account this year, but at the time the system was first introduced we actually saw a marked improvement.

Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
So you are saying the reason for the system is to encourage users to help others and therefore to show who the elite group are?
Drop the second part and I think you've largely got it - one of the main aims of the system is to encourage people to be helpful/friendly, and to discourage unhelpful/unfriendly behavior. If people are doing this because they think it's making them 'one of the elite' then I don't really have a problem with that, the positive results are well worth it. People with higher ratings are only an elite group if you as an individual choose to give them that status however - we certainly don't give a users rating much credence when moderating, and you're perfectly free (welcome even, I'd encourage it!) to judge a post based on it's content rather than solely by the rating of the poster. If you're seeing a lot of helpful advice from low rated users then maybe you could consider rating those users up rather than simply protesting the system.

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Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
Why should does it matter how friendly you have been to somebody else. Really I just don't get it, in reality do you walk around with a flip chart attached to yourself and people give you a mark for being friendly?


Because this is a community where we want people to be friendly to each other. It improves the experience of using the website. It makes sense from both a social and commercial perspective.

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I would suggest a simple thing: disabling rating in the Lounge section.
Why? The lounge on this board seems to occupy a special place in comparison to the other boards. People who are very friendly and helpful in beginners sections, or any other, can have their ratings drop (or rise) in a 'good' or 'bad' lounge post. And, vice versa.

The lounge is -mostly- not pure techical game dev/programming specific. Should the rating therefore be weighted the same as any other section?

Stating an opinion can cause other people to rate one down (or up). The question one can ask him/herself is: is this really fair?. Stating an opinion in the lounge shouldn't be causing a rate drop/ or rise (i.m.o.). It is therefore discouraged. The lounge should i.m.o. be a neutral place, where anyone could state their opinion without rating consequences (a violation of the lounge policies would be in stead corrected by the moderators ).Unfortunately, this is not always the case. I know this is a principal matter, but this is how I feel about it.

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The only suggestion for the rating system I have is that I think that when a user is rated, the forum should PM the user and give a link to the post that the user was rated for.

Example:
"You have been rated from this post" Where "this post" would be a link to the post
Or
"You have been rated from your profile."

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These suggestions have been floated before, many times in fact. They're rather easy to circumvent, and in the end they just become an annoyance, not a solution. They may even encourage pathological behavior, like attempting to cloak the source of a rating.

Look, if you don't think the number is a good thing, just ignore it. It's not that big a deal. It only exists to attach consequences to posting. When you post, you accept the possibility of those consequences, and it's up to you whether or not you pay attention to them.

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Quote:
Original post by Marmin
I would suggest a simple thing: disabling rating in the Lounge section.
Why? The lounge on this board seems to occupy a special place in comparison to the other boards. People who are very friendly and helpful in beginners sections, or any other, can have their ratings drop (or rise) in a 'good' or 'bad' lounge post. And, vice versa.

The lounge is -mostly- not pure techical game dev/programming specific. Should the rating therefore be weighted the same as any other section?


So, if I insulted someone, post stupid pics, or was otherwise being obnoxious in the lounge, no-one could do a thing if I kept myself low enough not to get suspended? An alternate rating for the lounge might work, but I don't see why it's needed. Shouldn't people be rated for their overall posts, and not just their helpful(For Beginner/etc) posts?

Quote:
Stating an opinion can cause other people to rate one down (or up). The question one can ask him/herself is: is this really fair?. Stating an opinion in the lounge shouldn't be causing a rate drop/ or rise (i.m.o.). It is therefore discouraged. The lounge should i.m.o. be a neutral place, where anyone could state their opinion without rating consequences (a violation of the lounge policies would be in stead corrected by the moderators ).Unfortunately, this is not always the case. I know this is a principal matter, but this is how I feel about it.


This is true, but sometimes people post blatantly annoying posts, without crossing the line into suspension, or even warnings. Not to say that if someone's post is merely annoying to me I rate them down, but if they are trying to annoy others I do.
I make most of my ratings(up and down) to posters responding to other people's posts, and not responses having to do with something I said. Sometimes I browse the For Beginners forum, and if I see someone being really helpful, I rate them up. (I browse the forum to learn myself, and to help others. I'm not particularily looking to rate people up)
I rarely, if ever, rate people down outside of the lounge. If I see someone post inaccuracies in another forum, I generally assume they made a mistake, or where trying to help but had their information wrong, and I don't rate them down for it. Most of my rate+'s go to posters outside of the lounge, and incidentally, most of my rate-'s go to lounge posters. I mean those that act like real jerks.(Again, I try not to rate those that are annoying to me, but rather those that are being annoying to others)
Quote:
Original post by SticksandStones
The only suggestion for the rating system I have is that I think that when a user is rated, the forum should PM the user and give a link to the post that the user was rated for.

That's a good idea, although it might spam the PM inbox. A page where you could view it would be better. (At the same place where you can see who rated you up) Others have also suggested the ability to add 'notes' to ratings, optionally telling people why you have rated them up or down, which is also a good idea.

Quote:
Look, if you don't think the number is a good thing, just ignore it. It's not that big a deal. It only exists to attach consequences to posting. When you post, you accept the possibility of those consequences, and it's up to you whether or not you pay attention to them.

Nicely put. That about sums up what it amounts to.

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Quote:

So, if I insulted someone, post stupid pics, or was otherwise being obnoxious in the lounge, no-one could do a thing if I kept myself low enough not to get suspended? An alternate rating for the lounge might work, but I don't see why it's needed. , and not just their helpful(For Beginner/etc) posts?


No. As any other board, insulting posts, or posts that are against the Board rules will be deleted , etc. by Moderators.
Quote:
Shouldn't people be rated for their overall posts
in my opinion, no. As it is a game dev. board the rating is very useful as to these specific issues.. but general , 'world affairs' issues shouldn't be rated the same as the former.

Quote:


This is true, but sometimes people post blatantly annoying posts, without crossing the line into suspension, or even warnings. Not to say that if someone's post is merely annoying to me I rate them down, but if they are trying to annoy others I do.
The problem, i.m.o is that's a personal opinion and the border line between fact and personal opinions is sometimes hard to draw.. The main point I wanted to make, that I sometimes feel I might not say what I really think because it will make my rating sink and I feel that's not what a rating is for. (this only happens in the lounge.. thefefore my point.)

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Quote:
Original post by Marmin
Quote:

So, if I insulted someone, post stupid pics, or was otherwise being obnoxious in the lounge, no-one could do a thing if I kept myself low enough not to get suspended? An alternate rating for the lounge might work, but I don't see why it's needed. , and not just their helpful(For Beginner/etc) posts?

No. As any other board, insulting posts, or posts that are against the Board rules will be deleted , etc. by Moderators.

Not necasarily. Unless something is really over the line, I doubt it will get deleted. You can see insulting posts in the lounge every now and then, and they usually don't even get a warning.

Quote:
Quote:
Shouldn't people be rated for their overall posts
in my opinion, no. As it is a game dev. board the rating is very useful as to these specific issues.. but general , 'world affairs' issues shouldn't be rated the same as the former.

Yes, sadly people do rate down others for holding different opinions. But unless these opinions are really off-the-wall offensive, they don't get rated down much.('Racial superiority' claims, for instance) People shouldn't rate others for opinions, but I'll admit it does happen. It is also possible for people to be getting rated down for the way they say something, and not what they say.
Quote:
Quote:
This is true, but sometimes people post blatantly annoying posts, without crossing the line into suspension, or even warnings. Not to say that if someone's post is merely annoying to me I rate them down, but if they are trying to annoy others I do.
The problem, i.m.o is that's a personal opinion and the border line between fact and personal opinions is sometimes hard to draw.. The main point I wanted to make, that I sometimes feel I might not say what I really think because it will make my rating sink and I feel that's not what a rating is for. (this only happens in the lounge.. thefefore my point.)

I'm sorry to hear that, and do I feel the same way sometimes, not very often though. I usually end up re-phrasing my post before posting, although I do sometimes stop writing the post. I still think that the rating system in the lounge helps cut down on the crap that gets posted, and am willing to harbor this slight un-willingness to post, if it does in fact limit it.
I can't actaully say for sure whether the rating system does help or not, as I wasn't here when the thing was introduced, but some people say that it has minimized the amount of these unwanted posts.
By 'crap' I mean posts that are posted just to post, posts that are insulting/abusive, posts that don't even try to make a point in an argument and just claim they are right, posts that are offensive, borderline-spam-posts, that kind of thing. Actaul spam, posts with warez links, posts encouraging illegal activity, and posts definately against forum rules are ofcourse taken care of by the moderaters, who do an excellant job of keeping them at bay, but there are lesser posts that ought to be frowned upon, and GDnet gives the power to affect these posts to the community.


Ugh, I get off-topic when I type to long, and somewhat poetic, so I'll cut this post off here, and save others the misery of having to read it. [smile]

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About the only use I can see for a rating system is possibly for newbies. To immediately discern who is a troll, and who is useful. Now as the Micromoon variant of DakeDesu (the true DakeDesu, rather than the false DakeDesu AKA Numbchucks (yes, he stole my handle, just like he stole a few other people's handles. Ask APC for verification on this)).

However, in the current state it is nothing more than a popularity contest. Nothing is shown about _what_ behaviours is bad. It just says "behaviours is bad". With this rating system I have no clue what I am doing wrong. Heck it does not even tell me who rated me down--only who rated me up.

I've already suggested doing a system closer to Perl Monks Karma System. Where you are rated based on your posts, rather than your popularity.

Like I've said, the current rating system is nothing more than a popularity contest than anything useful. Heck consider that whenever I post anything on this site, I get, a good portion of the time, nothing but crap responses--even on my useful threads (though, most of my useful threads get ignored).

Right now I am at my lowest point of Karma I've ever been at. This coming from somebody who is at ~1200 on an average day. So what the heck does that send to a new user when a user can easily bounce from ~1200 to ~500? This almost like Junior High all over again. I am at ~500 for a popularity, and I've prolly started more useful threads than the average person at ~1000. Proof?
Quote:

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=430415
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=430410 (this one I am still trying to grok until I can better respond.)
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=430401
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=429782
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=419446
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=419249
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=419243
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=418650
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=417454
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=417453
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=417452
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=391258
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=391250
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=391151


And that is even within the first three pages of my post history.

If you go through my post history, there are more useful single posts rather than threads that I've made. So I am at ~500 simply because I post in the lougne? That is pure and utter crap.

Seriously, this rating system is Junior High all over again.

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It seems to me that the ratings system could also be described as a method for filtering out annoying posts... If I wasn't a moderator I would set my ratings threshold to 500 so that I didn't have to subject myself to the rantings of the insane... [smile]

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