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Fredricomo

DirectX going down?

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I''ve heard that as time is passing that DirectX is slowly going down and OpenGL is being used more often in games that are being sold. Since there are some professional game programmers out there I would like your opinions. Do you think that Microsoft''s DirectX isn''t going to be good and that companies will be wanting programmers that program in OGL instead in the near future? I want to be a game programmer, and I don''t want to go somewhere that is going to come to a dead end soon. Thanks for your input

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As far as I''m concerned DirectX isn''t going anywhere, at least not for a long time. If you put it in perspective, most people run windows for gaming etc. so a very large (and I mean large) portion of the PC gaming market exists on windows platforms. This is not to say that other platforms aren''t catching up, but I don''t care what anyone says, its gonna be a long road for Linux... Basically, consider that directx is a windows native api so its tailored to run well under windows. I personally prefer to work with native api''s whenever I can because they will be much more stable and probably a little faster. XBox is also going to be using DirectX if that means anything to you. What it really comes down to is a matter of preference. DirectX is a little more difficult to manage and there isn''t as much info available on it (although that''s changing). Hell, give both a shot. The bottom line is that DirectX isn''t going away and it seems anyway, that it is more widely used in professional projects than OpenGl. If you want my advice, give DirectX 8.0 a shot. Its very well designed and has a multitude of the newest features. Just my two cents.

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quote:

Well, look at it this way... is X-Box using DirectX or OpenGL?



Both.

quote:

I''ve heard that as time is passing that DirectX is slowly going down and OpenGL is being used more often in games that are being sold.



I''ve heard the opposite. But learn whichever you find easiest. You pick up one, the other is easy to learn.

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Welcome to the Tech Age. In the end, it doesn''t matter.. Being able to learn a new technology and properly use (abuse?) it is where it counts.

Even if you learn C++ today and something better fails to come along, the tools used to build C++ apps continue to evolve, gain new features, and introduce new bugs.

The graphics libraries change much faster than the languages.

Everything is constantly changing, period.

Learn how to learn and never stop.


Dustin

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"Well, look at it this way... is X-Box using DirectX or OpenGL?"

I'm enlightened!! Thanks Buster - it's easy for me to see now that it's been explained to me. MS chose MS DirectX for their MS XBox because MS DirectX is a far better API.

I can't wait for Tha_HoodRat to arrive so he can share this moment with me - I am born again!!

Paulcoz.

Edited by - paulcoz on March 20, 2001 11:14:35 PM

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quote:

MS chose MS DirectX for their MS XBox because MS DirectX is a far better API



I surely hope that was some sort of humor. Microsoft chose DirectX because DirectX is theirs and they don't want anybody else's API running on their platform so they can have total control. That's why, and that's also why Direct3D was created.

As for Direct3D being a better API than OpenGL, I--and I'm sure many others around here--are getting absolutely sick of people saying that one is better than the other. FOR THE LAST TIME, EVERYONE, NOTHING IS INHERENTLY BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE--EVERYTHING HAS ITS STRONG POINTS AND WEAK POINTS SO USE WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU !

Edited by - merlin9x9 on March 20, 2001 11:58:18 PM

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Actually once you have a good understanding of both API''s, you start to see just how similar they both are. They''re almost the same in the end. The main advantanges OpenGL has is that it can be ported to other platforms, and has hardware extensions. The main advantage DirectX has is that it is easy to write drivers for so even the more crappy video cards can run it. Those are the only real differences. Pick one, learn it. If one of those advantages is a crucial point for you, then pick the one that has it .

"Finger to spiritual emptiness underlying everything." -- How a C manual referred to a "pointer to void." --Things People Said
Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!
http://www.gdarchive.net/druidgames/

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quote:
Original post by lunarss

As far as I''m concerned DirectX isn''t going anywhere, at least not for a long time. If you put it in perspective, most people run windows for gaming etc. so a very large (and I mean large) portion of the PC gaming market exists on windows platforms.



So what running a game under windows has to do with it being DirectX or not?

quote:

This is not to say that other platforms aren''t catching up, but I don''t care what anyone says, its gonna be a long road for Linux...



I''m even more confused... so you say that the only plataform where OpenGL matters is Linux?

quote:

Basically, consider that directx is a windows native api so its tailored to run well under windows.



Bullshit.

quote:

I personally prefer to work with native api''s whenever I can because they will be much more stable and probably a little faster. XBox is also going to be using DirectX if that means anything to you.



Means nothing to me.

quote:

The bottom line is that DirectX isn''t going away and it seems anyway, that it is more widely used in professional projects than OpenGl.



Huh?!?! Professional projects? What kind of projects are you talking about? What about scientific projects, running on Silicon Graphics workstations? Of course I know you are talking about games here, but keep in your mind that the BIG companies(that''s what I think you''re referring to) will make games support any API they want(they have resources, and can hire the necessary programmers). If there''s one reason that makes DirectX to be more popular is the crappy OpenGL support in the first 3D graphic cards. Hell, even my old 3DFX Banshee didn''t have a decent OpenGL driver(my Riva TNT 2 does, bless NVIDIA). Also, the first games used DirectX(not Direct 3D) because we didn''t have computers powerful enough to do realtime 3D rendering by then (remember Pitfall, one of the first available games for Windows 95) and it didn''t make sense to use a 3D API for the job(and also, it didn''t make sense for the hardware manufacturers to support an API that asn''t used at the time). By then, Direct3D was almost non-existant.




Gaiomard Dragon
-===(UDIC)===-

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The XBox supports both DX and OGL.

quote:

This is not to say that other platforms aren't catching up, but I don't care what anyone says, its gonna be a long road for Linux...



There are increasing numbers of linux gamers and developers. By using DX you are cutting out that portion of gamers until the WINE developers release their DX wrapping libraries, which basically wrap DX calls under linux to other api's such as OGL and the like.

quote:

I personally prefer to work with native api's whenever I can because they will be much more stable and probably a little faster. XBox is also going to be using DirectX if that means anything to you.



The Win32 build of OGL is optimized for win32, not for linux, so it will run just as well as D3D.

quote:

The bottom line is that DirectX isn't going away and it seems anyway, that it is more widely used in professional projects than OpenGl.



Professional projects tend to be cross-platform, and require a cross-platform api. They also occasionally offer support for other api's that the platform that each build runs on, such as DX and OGL for win32.

Both D3D and OGL are great API's, neither is better than the other. They both have strong points and weak points. Neither one of them is going to go away, whether you like it or not.

- Edit -
/me curses uppercase QUOTE not working

Edited by - Maximus on March 22, 2001 8:09:40 AM

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I don''t think that OpenGL will be available on the Xbox.., M$ business ;-)

Direct3D and OpenGL are both usable APIs, and everyone should just know both.

Tim

--------------------------
glvelocity.gamedev.net
www.gamedev.net/hosted/glvelocity

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About the whole XBox thing, the "media" (not just video) card that nVidia is putting in the XBox has a chip modeled after the Geforce 3, which supports OpenGL very well. So, there''s nothing stopping you from putting OpenGL on the XBox unless Microsoft is evil and doesn''t let you (i.e. they order nVidia to make the GL drivers purposefully incompatible).

"Finger to spiritual emptiness underlying everything." -- How a C manual referred to a "pointer to void." --Things People Said
Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!
http://www.gdarchive.net/druidgames/

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quote:
Original post by tcs
I don''t think that OpenGL will be available on the Xbox.., M$ business ;-)



The X-Isle engine runs on OpenGL, and is being built to run on the XBox. I havent seen the recently released movie of it, but I have the demo of the engine which looks a whole lot nicer than any movie, as its being rendered in realtime and looks damn fantastic. Plus I know someone working on it who used to regular (and still occasionally pops in) an irc channel that I idle in.

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DirectX vs. OpenGL is just a variation of the Star Wars vs. Star Trek, or Coke vs. Pepsi argument, Win32 vs. Linux, Spoon vs. Fork, Moops vs. Moors, etc..

You know I''m just really glad that ethnic cleansing arguments aren''t a derivative of the kind given above.

That would suck hard.

Wazoo

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MS is going to support GL on their X-Box, or else game developers like ID Software and Raven Software are not going to support it! There are a lot of game developers out there that seem to hate Direct3D. Not that I know why....

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Wow. I thought I would escape all this evangelism crap when I left OS coding and moved into gaming. If I learned anything from 12 years coding it''s that it doesn''t really matter too much what tool you use so long as you''re prepared to learn. I can still remember way back when, when I decided to learn Visual Basic V3.0 and everyone was telling me how useless it was compared to C++ and Cobol and that it would never last (I eventually went back to C++, but the VB stuff was good, fun and profitable). The bottom line is... if you''re looking for stability and long-term investment then choose something that works for you and that is supported by someone with loads of cash, or by people who hate the guys with the cash. Either way you''re going to be investing in a product that will continue to improve and be around for a long time. Microsoft isn''t about to just go away (despite what people have been saying for the last decade) and all the other stuff will probably keep going just as long and just as well.

Besides, the majority of the coding work that goes into a game comes in the form of logic, not driver support (and before anyone jumps on me for that, I did say ''the majority'', not ''most'')... the driver stuff is usually just a couple of hundred lines.

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Quote:
So what running a game under windows has to do with it being DirectX or not?

No it doesn''t. DirectX can be used or OpenGL. It up to you. I think a lot of people confuse DirectX with Direct3D. There is a lot more to DX than D3D. Games like Q3A use a lot of DX (input, sound, etc.) and use OpenGL as their rendering platform.


Quote:
I''m even more confused... so you say that the only plataform where OpenGL matters is Linux?

No, he never said that. He said that as a games platform Linux has a long way to go before it gains popularity the Windows has now. However (there''s always a however) most companies now write game servers for both Linux and Win32.


Quote:
Bullshit.

That is a meaningless statement. The basis of an argument is you put forward points to support your viewpoint.


quote:
Means nothing to me.

Fine keep your head in the sand.


quote:
Huh?!?! Professional projects? What kind of projects are you talking about? What about scientific projects, running on Silicon Graphics workstations? Of course I know you are talking about games here, but keep in your mind that the BIG companies(that''s what I think you''re referring to) will make games support any API they want(they have resources, and can hire the necessary programmers). If there''s one reason that makes DirectX to be more popular is the crappy OpenGL support in the first 3D graphic cards. Hell, even my old 3DFX Banshee didn''t have a decent OpenGL driver(my Riva TNT 2 does, bless NVIDIA). Also, the first games used DirectX(not Direct 3D) because we didn''t have computers powerful enough to do realtime 3D rendering by then (remember Pitfall, one of the first available games for Windows 95) and it didn''t make sense to use a 3D API for the job(and also, it didn''t make sense for the hardware manufacturers to support an API that asn''t used at the time). By then, Direct3D was almost non-existant.

Well were on GameDev.Net you know? Also the reason DX is popular is because the only alternative is to write handlers for every type of joystick, graphics card, sound card, monitor, modem, and network card out there. Get reasonable! When the 3DFX first came out OpenGL was the confined largely to mainframes. The 3DFX technology was for cheap and fast 3D which was designed to blit polygons. It wasn''t designed for OpenGL and probably wasn''t a factor in its design. When it came out it Win95 had just been released though a lot of companies (Bullfrog for instance) were still writing and releasing games in DOS. There was even support for GLIDE in DOS. Also if I remember correctly, D3D wasn''t in the first few releases of DX (though I could be wrong).

Final words: I agree TCS. Learn both.


Stay Lucky, Graham "Mournblade" Reeds,
ICQ: 30514803
http://homepage.dtn.ntl.com/grahamr

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quote:
Original post by grahamr

Also if I remember correctly, D3D wasn''t in the first few releases of DX (though I could be wrong).


D3D has been a part of all DirectX releases. However, D3D 1 was supposed to be incredibly hard to use (and is what caused Id Software to use the other one, and some people still refuse to use it because they have convinced themselves that it could not possibly have got better)

quote:

Learn both.


That''s a bit hard for me to do as all OpenGL applications crash my computer. Yes, I am annoyed with Trident, since whenever I go into a shop and see Voyager: Elite Forces I am reminded I can''t play it.




Just because you''re outnumbered doesn''t mean you''re wrong.


www.directdeveloper.co.uk

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>>Yes, I am annoyed with Trident, since whenever I go into a shop and see Voyager: Elite Forces I am reminded I can''t play it.<<

can your card do d3d quick?

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quote:
Original post by zedzeek

>>Yes, I am annoyed with Trident, since whenever I go into a shop and see Voyager: Elite Forces I am reminded I can''t play it.<<

can your card do d3d quick?


Yes.



Just because you''re outnumbered doesn''t mean you''re wrong.


www.directdeveloper.co.uk

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Please help me to choose.

I always hear that both are very good and I should decide for myself (HA HA what a crappy answer)
I NEED TO KNOW WHICH ONE IS FASTER OR BETTER!!
I mean Direct 3d and OpenGL and NOT DIRECTX!!!
YOU Know what I mean 3d programming, let the shit with DirectDraw and DirectInput out.

Please tell me it is f***ing important for. Your answer will change my life, SO TELL ME, ... NOW!!!

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One of my friends is an ogl die-hard just because he learned d3d in 5 or 6 when it was hell and now he just thinks it couldn''t have gotten better. with dx8, dx code looks almost exactly like ogl code, so i wouldn''t be surprised if u see more games supporting both, even without massive coding teams and huge budgets.

I am the MadProgrammer! Mwahahahahahahahaha!

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DirectX is based on COM which, last time I looked could be used on different platforms. It whould be possible to have dlls that maps the DX interfaces to OpenGL, as I know you can get a DLL for OpenGL which mapps it to D3D.


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Guest Anonymous Poster
The speed is depending on the driver. On some cards is the OpenGL drivers better and other has better D3D drivers.

You can do the latest stuff first in OpenGL since the card manufacturers can make an extension. D3D is controlled by MS so it takes time if and when D3D supports it. One example of this is the advanced shadow maps on GF3 presented in Tokyo (luxman jr, doom3) that is OpenGL only.

Right now is it better commercial opportunitys with OpenGL thanks to the cross platform support but the X-box is expected in the near future with D3D only.

If you are new to 3D programming is certainly OpenGL better since it is _much_ better documented.



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