Quote:Original post by the_dannobot
If I could, I would spend all day designing, playing, and talking about 2d fight games. I've been writing a simple 2d smash style fight game, and as a result of researching 2d fight games I'm currently obsessed with them.

I never played many for a few reasons:

1) Most of my friends didn't
2) Most of my friends that did would kill me before I knew what was happening
3) The censored vs. uncensored issue turned me off of Mortal Kombat which, along with Street Fighter 2, was "the" 2D fighting game.

But, what little I've played recently (some version of Tekken a few years ago, some Smash Bros.) I've enjoyed and, I agree, they have some interesting design issues.

So that I don't have to keep repeating it, let me say this now and let it be understood for the rest of this post: My experience is limited, so please forgive my ignorance. [smile]

Quote:
So how do you make a good combo system?

We're talking combos like Hadouken in Street Fighter 2, yes? For me, second only to balance, is having a consistent "feel". Create a theme for each character and for the game as a whole and stick with it. If the moves are rhythmic on screen, make me follow a similar rhythm with my fingers. If I have to twist my fingers like a pretzel, have my character bend in ways I never thought possible. Are combos the primary means of attack, something to be used only in special circumstances, or slight variations on normal attacks?

I'm sure there's some sort of "rule of three" or "0, 1, or infinity" sort of rule here, too. If only one character relies on combos that may be ok if each character breaks style in its own way, but otherwise it's just a gimick.

Quote:
How do you balance a character in a fighting game?

I'm not sure I've ever seen too much technical discussion on balance, and I think that's because the only real way is to try it. What looks good on paper won't necessarily be good in game.

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Parries or alpha-counters?

What's an alpha-counter? [smile]

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Super bars, tension gauges, and block meters: yes or no?

Again, my ignorance is showing.

Quote:
What's the best music to listen to when playing 3rd Strike? Right now I'm going through an Incubus "Crow Left of the Murder" phase.

I don't play 3rd Strike, but I'm usually pretty variable. I'll go from Simon and Garfunkel to Korn to Aerosmith to Alison Kraus.

Quote:Original post by Way Walker
We're talking combos like Hadouken in Street Fighter 2, yes?

No. Hadouken is the cry that accompanies the fireball generated from the palms of the Shotokan adepts - Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, etc. A "combo" (contraction of "combination") is a sequence of mixed attacks that a.) look cool, b.) deliver as many hits as possible, c.) inflict as much damage as possible. A simple 3-hit combo with Ryu/Ken is the drop-knee (↑ + med kick), forward knee (med kick up close) OR elbow (med punch), Dragon Punch (approx → ↓ → + punch).

The key to creating a good combo system is to provide a good range of "intermediate" attacks that stun the opponent, opening them up for further hits and not pushing them too far back. These attacks must also be quick, which is why the medium and light kick/punch buttons become so important. Heavy attacks are generally slow, and also push the opponent back, if they don't knock them off their feet, so it's not easy to create extended combos using them except as conclusions.

Quote:Original post by the_dannobot
How do you balance a character in a fighting game?

A character can not be Fast and Strong. A character can not master both Aerial and Ground-based attacks. A character can not have an arsenal of both Ranged and Grapple attacks. In addition, powerful attacks must create a moment of vulnerability in their aftermath, so if the player mis-times their use he pays the penalty, and if the opponent avoids/blocks the attack, he can exploit the sudden inversion of advantage.

That's really the basis. On top of that, you typically have rock-paper-scissors type deals, and counters.

Quote:Original post by the_dannobot
Parries or alpha-counters?

Both.

Quote:Original post by Way Walker
What's an alpha-counter? [smile]

Alphas are special, super-duper attacks that normally can not be blocked. As the Street Fighter series continued to evolve (alphas were introduced in Street Fighter II Alpha), parries were introduced, where by precisely timing your inputs you could block each individual hit of an alpha sequence. The classic example is a video of a well-known Third Strike player, using Ryu, parrying Chun-Lis entire alpha and then unleashing his own alpha as part of a combo... in a tournament, with a room full of screaming people.

Quote:Original post by the_dannobot
Super bars, tension gauges, and block meters: yes or no?

Make them optional, so matches can be configured with or without them. Sometimes I enjoy them, as they change they game's strategy.

Quote:Original post by the_dannobot
What's the best music to listen to when playing 3rd Strike? Right now I'm going through an Incubus "Crow Left of the Murder" phase.

Personally, I still enjoy the game's stage music.

Quote:Original post by the_dannobot
So how do you make a good combo system?

I'm not a fan of combo systems and would prefer simply not to have one.

Quote:Parries or alpha-counters?

I'm also not a fan of alphas. That said, I prefer parries over alpha counters (and who says you can't have both?).

Quote:Super bars, tension gauges, and block meters: yes or no?

Maybe, no, and no.


Note that I'm not a big fan of traditional 2D fighters (though I was really good at Street Fighter Alpha 3, back when I still had a copy), so my opinion probably isn't going to mean much if you want to appeal to people that do like those games.

Quote:Original post by Oluseyi

Quote:Original post by Way Walker
We're talking combos like Hadouken in Street Fighter 2, yes?

No. Hadouken is the cry that accompanies the fireball generated from the palms of the Shotokan adepts - Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, etc. A "combo" (contraction of "combination") is a sequence of mixed attacks that a.) look cool, b.) deliver as many hits as possible, c.) inflict as much damage as possible. A simple 3-hit combo with Ryu/Ken is the drop-knee (↑ + med kick), forward knee (med kick up close) OR elbow (med punch), Dragon Punch (approx → ↓ → + punch).

I see. Doesn't really change my response, though. Not considering balance issues, theming the moves intended for combos seems important, especially considering point (a). In fact, this "theming" seemed to affect the choice of characters I see people make far more than effectiveness (then again, most people I've played with or watched play aren't hardcore types).

Excellent Gamasutra article that, while fairly general, has plenty of points that could be applied specifically to 2D fighting games: linky.

For me, 2D fight games do have some drawbacks. A player of medium experience will almost always defeat a player of no experience, making playing against friends a frustrating endeavour. (If this is not the case, it probably means the game can be won by button mashing, which is frustrating in a completely different way). I also find the single-player modes tend to be lacklustre at best, due to either totally predicable or unfairly hard enemy AI.

That said, I misspent most of my youth playing Street Fighter 2, so when a game gets it right, it can be a genuine sensation. I'd still rather play any of SF2 than any of the modern equivalents - Tekken, DOA, perhaps even Soul Calibur too though I did enjoy that series a lot; not because of any 2D vs. 3D purist snobbery, but because recent games are all about twitch responses, meaning whoever can execute the moves more quickly wins, rather than executing the right move in the right place. Also moves seem to be much more difficult to pull off now - what the hell happened to back, back, forward, punch? I'm playing a rock-hard super warrior, I shouldn't need to be a super-responsive gamepad whiz in order to perform the basic moves.

Edit - interesting, the tag doesn't seem to work? Just paste http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070123/chelaru_01.shtml into your browser instead.