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Reality Of Being A Game Programmer

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Since I'm going to college next year I've been applying for schools, and my major of choice is Computer Science. My second major choice was gonna be sound engineering or music composition, but I realized there's very little chance of getting a job in that. Well one of the schools I'm applying for is DigiPen, which as a lot of you probably know is a game programming school. My other school choices are Washington State University, which has a fairly good CS program, and then Bradley University, which doesn't really have a good program, but I have other reasons to go there. I have two questions for those who have WORK experience in the field of game programming, or even programming. First, does what school you go to really matter to employers? My programming teacher now is encouraging me to go to a top computer science school, which I can only get into very few of, but I don't know how important that is in reality. Also, how realistic is it to get a job in game programming? I hear most of the people on these forums talking about their hobby projects, though as much as I enjoy programming as a hobby, but is that what a degree will get you? The reason I gave up music as a major was to be realistic about making money, even though my parents supported it. My parents don't support me going into game programming, and most people I talk to think it's a "joke" to try to get a job in it. I want to know if I should even bother finishing my DigiPen application, or I should just try to work in a different field of programming.

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I've worked in the games industry for about 4 years now (worked in dot-com biz for around 4 years before that).

A "traditional" college CS degree is still much more highly regarded inside and outside of the game programming industry. A top CS institution (MIT, CalTech, etc) are again even more highly regarded than a "typical traditional" college degree and will help you get a job; one of those degrees will basically guarantee that you have a well paid job in any programming industry immediately upon graduation. But, the bigger benefit of either college system is the networking with classmates/professors/recent graduates, all of whom can pass your resume along and help you get your foot in the door.

I'd highly reccomend ditching the digipen application and getting a "traditional" degree; not only is it more "respected" but you can switch fields more easily, the social life is infinitely more fun, girls are cuter, etc.

A digipen degree will lock you into game programming; a pretty significant percentage of people change majors in college, with digipen that's not an option. if you decide you hate game programming too bad, now you have to either drop out or take a game programming job for 3 years to get enough work experience to switch fields.

Out of the maybe 100 or so programmers at work I know of 2 who went to a digipen type university; they're decent programmers. However, I've interviewed maybe 6 people from there and they were all pretty poorly educated. One of the digipen dudes with whom I work doesn't even know who alan turing is; not that that's an indication of programming ability but come on. =)

-me

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gaming buissines is huge, its a multibillion dollar industry. No way its a joke. they might think of it like that becouse theydo not know better.
Im (also?) quite new to programming games, but the way (i think) the industry see you is, your talent. I do not believe theyll youll never get hired in a game company if you go to anything else than digipen/full sail. See what each school has to offer, and what YOU want to focus on. Again, i believe it all comes down to what you can offer when you send in your resumé, but also, again, people whom have been here longer might know "better" than me.

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Get a CS degree. You'll be much more well-rounded and credible to employers.

If you still want to do game programming afterwards, you won't have anything that Digipen graduates won't have or can't pick up with relative ease.

If you find out that you don't want to do game programming, you'll be able to do a lot more than you would with a Digipen degree, for a lot more money.

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adding to what others have said, i'm not sure how it works in the US but in the UK if you have a good pass (2:1 or better) in computer science you allways have doors open for you to study a masters in a related field if you find you wish to specialise more. If you do something like digipen (as has been said) you're more boxed in.


one question i have to ask is "what qualifies a degree as being computer science?". I hear the phrase thrown around, but from what i've seen my degree (a games programming one) is more computer science than most computer science degrees.

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one question i have to ask is "what qualifies a degree as being computer science?". I hear the phrase thrown around, but from what i've seen my degree (a games programming one) is more computer science than most computer science degrees.


Well, for me a "pure" CS degree is not even related to programming, it is more philosophical like studying algorithm analysis, "turing" machines =), decibility problems, lambda calculus, mathematical logic and so forth.

You know, all that weird stuff your parents/friends don't have a clue you "actually" study (all of them think we go to college and take WindowsXP, MS Office and How-To repair PC's classes... give me a break)

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A CS degree means you know the fundamental theories of programming that are true for all languages. In my experience those with a digipen type degree seem to have a more tradeskill oriented education: i.e. they know a few algorithms and how to implent them but are generally awful at things like complexity analysis, theory and designing new algorithms for new problems.

Yes a recent digipen graduate will likely know more game-programming related coding stuff. However, I've found the recent CS degree people to be able to learn any new system faster and are better at designing new & solid algorithms.

But that's all anecdotal and admittedly biased.

What's not anecdotal is that a CS degree is generally more respected and will allow you access to a greater variety of industries.

-me

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one question i have to ask is "what qualifies a degree as being computer science?". I hear the phrase thrown around, but from what i've seen my degree (a games programming one) is more computer science than most computer science degrees.

If you ask me, the title Computer Science seemed always a bit misleading for me. In many, mostly non-english speaking countries, the Computer Science degree is called Informatics, or better say the correspoding translation to the actual country's language.
I think Informatics brings us closer to the scope of the degree, where Computer Science is merely just a small part of it. That said you will see that computers and programming languages are just the tools you would use to apply the knowledge, it's not the knowledge about the tools you strive for. This means going the classical Computer Science / Informatics route will get you a lot deeper into the theory of information, information processing, information system engineering ect. using Mathematics as your main tool and computers with programming languages as your secondary.

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I'm a Digipen graduate, and it really is a good school. Rightly or wrongly, and I'd say wrongly, there is some perception of Digipen grads being less than grads of more traditional programs in non-game industries, and even, to a lesser extent, within the games industry.

While the degree may not be *quite* as broad as a more traditional university program, its not nearly as narrow as people often presume or portray. You're not going to write an Operating System or compiler at Digipen, but you will study them, and you will write an optimizing mathematical expression parser, you will learn about bits, bytes and electronic circuits, build micro-controller powered robotic cars, and have access to a wealth of electives ranging from sound and image processing to advanced mathematics and physics. You can even Minor in math, and I believe soon, Physics.

Ultimately its about what you become. Some people absolutely thrive at Digipen, others would be better off at University, some do both -- coming to Digipen to get game-specific training after a traditional CS degree.

The Digipen grads who have previous University degrees are always snatched up quickly by employers, often during or before their last year. I'd say 10% or more of the senior class leaves Digipen every year because they've been "poached" by employers, and probably 40% have standing offers upon their graduation. I roomed with a guy who came to Digipen fresh out of high school with little or no prior programming experience and took a job at Bungie for 66k a year, he beat out ~200 applicants, many of whom had industry experience.

There are three primary advantages to Digipen:

  1. Your Portfolio. By the time you graduate Digipen, you'll have a minimum of 4 complete game projects to showcase for potential employers. They're all done in teams of various sizes, and employers love people who can be an effective team player.

  2. Your Training. Whatever advantages a traditional University may have, 99% will not teach you much about games. If your employer says "We want you to write a skeletal animation system using Inverse Kinematics" the foundation will be there for the university grad, but the experience will most likely not.

  3. Balance. While this is not true of all university programs, and finding a *good* university program is paramount, the one thing I'll say that Digipen had down was the balance between theory and practice. Some university programs lean too heavily toward theory, and offer too little opportunity for practice. Digipen is excelent in that you will do everything you learn at least once, and it will nearly always serve as a basis for things you will do later. All in all, you spend the appropriate amount of time *doing* for the amount of time you spend *talking* Not all University programs have found this balance. There's also a risk of a program being too much practice and not enough theory, where students graduate with only the ability to mimic what they've seen before, a situation which digipen itself has thankfully avoided, though the same cannot be said for all of its students.



That's not to say that Digipen doesn't have its downsides - Firstly, it's expensive, you can count on spending 25k per year with tuition, books and living expenses. Second, the social aspect is much different (read: lacking) compared to a larger, University program, and yes, generally speaking, the girls are prettier on the outside. Lastly, when looking for employment outside the games industry you may have to alter your approach a little - focus your resume less toward games and more on your skillset (you should be tailoring your resume to the position anyhow) and be prepared to demonstrate your skills as applicable to the industry at hand.

That said, I've found no problem getting employment outside the industry in my experience, in fact both jobs I've held since graduating have been outside the games industry (for the simple fact that they were the best offers at the time.) I've always had multiple offers when seeking employment, and I've been able to find my job within 3-4 weeks of starting my search.


Ultimately, what you need to do is consider your options as far as your CS education is concerned: I see University, Digipen/Fullsail/etc., or both.

You're not far from Digipen, its only a ~5 hour drive for you, so you should definatley visit during one of their monthly open houses, talk to some teachers (I'd specifically recommend Prof. Mead), talk to some students, and check out the area. Visit your desired WSU campus as well and do the same. Really, all anyone here can do, myself included, is give anecdotal and probably slightly biased evidence based on our personal experiences. Ultimately, you have to decide what will give you the best experience and will best fit your learning style, expectations, etc.

There's a forum-goer who goes by jpetrie who is a dual (University/Digipen) grad who may chime in if he comes along. He would be a good source to compare and contrast the University / Digipen experiences. I'm sure there are others like him as well.

My final words for this posting are these: Digipen is a fine school as long as you treat it that way, if you don't approach it seriously and you expect it to be all fun & games, I suggest you save your tuition and invest in an ostrich farm instead -- or better yet, go someplace where you can convince yourself that you'll need to put in real effort and work. If you can't approach it seriously, you'll fail out anyways, and if you slip through on a minimum of effort you'll only be a black eye on the name of the Institution and its graduates who truly did put in the effort to become well studied and intelligent professionals.

[Edited by - ravyne2001 on March 7, 2007 4:42:34 PM]

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I have called and e-mailed many game companies and they have all said the same thing: Your degree matters very little compared to your experience and portfolio. From what I've gotten from it, if you have a great demo program that blows them away more than a Harvard grad's, it wont matter whether you went to a community college or an IVY League school. I am not finished with college and have not yet transfered to Digipen, but that is the answer I have gotten from game companies when I have asked.

I asked a question similar to this before on the boards, and I was surprised to hear of a person who actually did not have a CS degree (he had a degree in some sort of biology I believe) who is now a game programmer.

In my opinion, go to a school you will be happy at. Being able to associate with people and make friends, make networks with people who share similar minds, and just plain out be happy with your environment is the most important aspect of choosing a school. Being unhappy will affect your grades and performance, which will make your time at school a waste. This is something I have learned from experience. Whether Digipen really will or will not give me a better education than a traditional CS degree, I will be more satisified with the people and the environment, and that will be what helps me accel in my studies.

[Edited by - bugbear on April 5, 2007 4:36:39 PM]

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Quote:
Original post by ravyne2001
... I'd say 10% or more of the senior class leaves Digipen every year because they've been "poached" by employers, ...

Apparently a Digipen degree is not worth much if people will throw it away just to take a job.
Quote:
Original post by ravyne2001
... and probably 40% have standing offers upon their graduation...

40% is not a very good number. Compare it to other universities.
Quote:
Original post by ravyne2001
...he beat out ~200 applicants, many of whom had industry experience.

200 applicants! Think about what that means. If you are hoping to get a job in the game industry, there are 200 other people just like you competing for that same job.

The reality is that it is very difficult to get a job in the game industry. Your plans for college should account for that. A degree in CS or engineering will give you the opportunity to work in many different fields, and the nice thing is that you don't have to decide right away.

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Get a CS degree. I've been in the industry for over 7 years now. Every time I get a fullsail or digipen resume across my desk I'm always disappointed by the quality of the take-home programmer tests and the breadth of learning experience. It might not be the norm out there, but it is the norm at my office.

A CS degree can lead to more interesting things in life; who knows if you'll be interested in being a grunt programmer at a games company after your degree - you might be more interested in a masters or doing an economics or business degree and moving into marketing or producing at a game company instead.

-S

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Quote:
Original post by JohnBolton
Quote:
Original post by ravyne2001
... I'd say 10% or more of the senior class leaves Digipen every year because they've been "poached" by employers, ...

Apparently a Digipen degree is not worth much if people will throw it away just to take a job.

How do you reach that conclusion? Certainly I would never choose to go the same route, but I fail to see how the program is de-valued by the fact that some students are valuable enough to hire even before they've finished. If anything, wouldn't that speak to program's quality?

Quote:
Original post by JohnBolton
Quote:
Original post by ravyne2001
... and probably 40% have standing offers upon their graduation...

40% is not a very good number. Compare it to other universities.

To be honest, 40% is a very rough number that I basically pulled out of the air from my recollection, its very likely higher, and by Standing offer I mean they have a job to go that starts at their earliest convenience after their graduation.

Quote:
Original post by JohnBolton
Quote:
Original post by ravyne2001
...he beat out ~200 applicants, many of whom had industry experience.

200 applicants! Think about what that means. If you are hoping to get a job in the game industry, there are 200 other people just like you competing for that same job.


Look, I'm not saying his case is par for the course, but its not atypical either. You seem to concentrate on the competition, rather than the fact that he beat them out -- including so-called industry vets -- This was a smart kid, straight out of the Arkansas pubic school system, excellent in math but no University experience and nothing more than an interest in computers. Digipen, combined with his own intelligence and determination, turned him into a really solid developer. I have no doubt that he would have thrived equally in any other program, but Digipen is what provided him with the framework in which he grew.


Quote:
Original post by JohnBolton
The reality is that it is very difficult to get a job in the game industry. Your plans for college should account for that. A degree in CS or engineering will give you the opportunity to work in many different fields, and the nice thing is that you don't have to decide right away.


I do not disagree. Game studios only want the best talent, and many of them also want it to work 60 hour weeks at a pay rate that's well below market value for simalarly skilled devs in other industries.

As I said in my original post, thats precisely the reason I have yet to work in the games industry, despite my Digipen Degree; too many hours for too little pay, plain and simple. But I have not, as you seem to insinuate, found the origin of my degree to be a hinderince to my employment outside of games. Having been through the program, I can assure you that the assumption that Digipen focusses solely on game development, while completely sacrificing basic theory is false.


Digipen is a great place for those that want to be in the game industry, and in my experience its been a great place to be for taking your career outside the industry -- though this is not everyone's experience. You must, however, consider the possibility that the game industry is *not* for you.

I do not believe that a University program will statistically open signifigantly more doors than a Digipen Degree will, however you may have to work harder to overcome the negative stereotype that some employers have of Digipen or of game developers in general. Of course, the answer is much more complex -- some places seek digipen grads only, some seek university grads only, some don't care... Its really a mixed bag.

The bottom line is that once you've got an interview you need to prove your knowlege and value. That's it.


We've gotten quite off-topic here to be honest, but I do feel the need to defend the program when it is attacked. This is not because I feel personally wronged but because, when left unchallenged, such things only serve to further the false stereotypes that do exist in some minds.

AT the end of the day, I'm satisfied that Digipen helped develop my personal skills and understanding to a level that not only prepared me for the current job market, but also provided me with the basis for continued growth and understanding through personal study as technology advances or I take on new roles. Others' miliage may vary.

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I see a lot of 'Get a CS degree' on this page. I whole heartedly agree. As of now I am a Junior CS major at the University of Wisconsin. Here is my experience so far...

To be honest, I have not done much that interests me. My third year in college sparked the beginning of 'interesting' programs. Last semester it began with an intro to graphics course using opengl. Now I am in a game technology course. If you would like to see what it is we have been up to, you can check it out here:

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~cs679-1/Fletchal/ProjectMainPage


Before this year, I was required to take all kinds of math and engineering that I do not use currently and will not use in a non-theoretical field. I know that sounds terrible :) but this school's CS Dept. is heavily into theory and not into applying ideas, just discussing them. Its Games course is just a fledgling and only really supported by one professor (thank god there is at least one). There are other schools that offer more in the field while still supplying the traditional education. As far as I have seen, Washington and the University of Michigan best describe what I am talking about, but I am sure there are others.

If you do end up at a school that is heavily theory based and not application based, I encourage you to do some work outside of classes on your own. Stay active on gamedev and join/start student orgs that focus on game programming. It will put you a step ahead of your classmates. I don't want to say I am any better a computer science major than my peers, however, I did all of the things I mentioned and it paid off. When it comes to applying the theory and ideas that have been taught in class I see the others (the ones who don't work on their own hobby projects outside of class) struggling to put their knowledge into something concrete.

Anyways, I hope this helps and if you have questions please respond or pm me!

Goodluck to you!

-sevans


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Just figured I'd repeat what everyone else said, getting a CS degree is a very good idea. However, keep in mind what it is, and what it isn't. You'll learn a lot of stuff that is valuable to a programmer, but it is not a programming degree. So if you want to get into programming (which is where most CS people end up), you should probably do some programming in your spare time. You learn lots of theory in CS, but it's always a good idea to get in some practical experience as well.
I'd also pick it over something like Digipen.
Specialized game programming schools have two problems, imo.
First, they're specialized, meaning they're not that useful if you ever choose to do something other than game programming.
And second, they're (as far as I know), not as theoretical oriented as CS. this is just me, but I think if you're going to get a degree, it should be to get all the theory you can't easily learn on your own. On the other hand, the practical experience is just a matter of, well, practice, so not much point in paying tuition and everything for that. You can get it in your spare time for free.

Apart from that, if you're worried about money, the games industry might not be the best place to work. The pay isn't usually as good as in other programming fields. Of course, you won't starve or anything, but if your goal is to make as much money as possible, go with other kinds of programming.

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Quote:
Original post by Sevans
the University of Michigan best describe what I am talking about


If there is absolutely one thing I know about anything its that if you want a future in the game industry you'll stay away from Michigan.

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Quote:
Original post by VerMan

You know, all that weird stuff your parents/friends don't have a clue you "actually" study (all of them think we go to college and take WindowsXP, MS Office and How-To repair PC's classes... give me a break)


Thats soo true, my dads friend is bringing his computer tommorow so i can fix it. :(
because he thinks thats what i learn with my degree in CSCI.
i think the name computer science is misleading, it should be called computing science.

one day there was this freshman talking and he was like ya i was gonna major in computer engineering, they are the people who build computer, but then i found out computer scientist tell the computer engnineers what to do so im gonna major in Computer science instead. Poor kid i never got the chance to tell him. now hes gonna waste his time taking CS classes and hes gonna be in for a surprise.

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As a hiring manager in a small game development company, I can tell you that we value experience much more than the type of degree you have.

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I'm trying to do the same thing as you (get a solid Computer Science degree with games specialization), and I've put a lot of thought into it --- so I thought I'd share with you a bit.

At first I was considering Digipen, but that plan quickly evaporated when I began to find out that Digipen doesn't have good accreditation. This means that you're pretty much locked into game development(as others have said). As far as games go, I hear it's an excellent school; but if you want a solid education that will allow you to do "anything," this is not the place.

Since then, I have narrowed down my college choices to University of Southern California, DePaul, and Southen Methodist University. USC and DePaul both have great Computer Science(Games) degrees that are just as good as a traditional Computer Science degree --- but give you plenty of specialized education in games along the way. SMU only has a master's program in games, so I'm mostly still considering it in case I decide I don't like the other two. But if that works better for you I would definitely consider it.

Anyway, I'd suggest looking into these colleges. If you don't think you can get into them --- well you'll never know unless you try ;)

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Look, your FIRST job will obviously only have your schooling to look at on your resume. A CS degree always looks better then a highly specific digipen one. Your subsequent jobs will look at your experience and knowledge, very little to your degree.

Your lack of degree _might_ limit how far you can go in your corporate laddder. In our company (large 1000+ employee), you can not be a director of a department if you do not have a bachelor degree, period, company policy. More often than not, other large corporations have this policy too.

But, the idea that your first job will land you a job making a game is an extremely optimistic one. There are MANY developers that want that job. More likely than not, your first real company job will be developing tools, scripting some portion, working with assets, etc. Not the core developement team.

At 12, I knew I wanted to make games. I loved games, I loved computers, I loved programming. Now, 28, I have spent around 8 years of my life developing tools and business apps for game companies. I only made 2 commercial casual games that took about 2 months from start to finish. I found that tools were more interesting and found that most of the actual game developers (which I work with closely) have realized that "developing" a game today is not as fun as it was back in 80s and early 90s. But many still do and love the job.

Point is, CS degree will allow you to specialize in many development areas, not just games. It is regarded much more than Digipen. If you can't find a job with EA or Vivendi or Ubisoft, you will be able to take your degree to Symantech and Adobe and elsewhere. No company will turn you away because you had a CS degree rather than Digipen. But many will look down on Digipen vs CS.

My 2 cents.

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Quote:
Original post by serratemplar
Hey man,

Read this post throughly (pay particular attention to Mr Jeff Landers)
Link.

Bottom line is a gaming college won't give you what you need. They often give you a skimming over of things like Calculus and Linear Algebra that are pretty much your lifeblood in things like graphics. Get a degree from a "typical" college, as was said before. It will carry you a long way in life.

Cheers.


Quoted because you missed the closing double-quote in the link, so half your post disappeared.

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In response to a few things on this thread (as a CS & Digipen degree holder):

1. Out of the 5 girls at Digipen, 1 was cute. I probably saw more hot girls walking to class in one day at the University than all Digipen students combined.

2. That 40% number that the guy came to (I believe) refers to students getting a game programming job offer, as opposed to any computer programming related job offer. I highly doubt that 40% of CS University students are getting game industry job offers. That being said, Digipen doesn't really teach HTML or SQL or the like, so I would tend to think that University students are much more likely to field these types of job offers. Not that a Digipen grad couldn't make a webpage...


My advice (if possible, keeping in mind the cost of education) is go for the University degree first, then think about Digipen after. I say this for a few reasons:

I think University is as much about growing up and maturing as a person as it is for education (almost). With Digipen, you do not get this experience. You are basically locked in a lab for 12+ hours a day writing code. Most kids fresh out of high school are not ready for this commitment and due to the intensiveness of the program, this is why a lot of people do not finish it. At 18, I would never have made it at Digipen. At 22, I was way more focused and determined at what I wanted to accomplish.

Also, as most people said, you won't be locked into game programming at University. Not that Digipen does this to you, but you do get a more well rounded CS education at a University, even if half of it is theory. As the other guy said, it's definitely worth your while to visit Digipen and make your own judgements, since you do live so close.

Another thing is that a lot of Universities are offering game-related curriculums, as this field is growing so rapidly. Some schools off the top of my head are: U of Washington, SMU, CMU, (UCLA or USC or Cal, one of them), and I'm sure a bunch of others. Look into those programs for a comparison.

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I graduated from DigiPen, and I would say that it was the best thing I could have done for myself. The portfolio, the education, the teamwork, and being surrounded by so much talent is an experience you just won't get anywhere else. However I think DigiPen is accepting more students than it can handle, and the dropout rate is disturbingly high.

The average DigiPen student does not graduate, I would warn anybody planning to go there that statistically you will probably fail. You will probably burn out within the first two years, or you will squeak through only because somebody else was willing to hold your hand. I will warn you that the courses are ridiculously grueling and you will work with some truly useless individuals. Some of these individuals will mysteriously graduate, and go on to bitch about why they can't get a good job with their degree.

You will also work with some of the most talented people you will ever meet. If you have an eye for it, first year you will already be able to tell who is going to be successful. If you are one of the few who go that extra mile, you will be making game projects that are consistently higher quality than any other school puts out. This means spending as much, if not more, time on your project than you already spend in classes and homework. If you are willing to do this, you will be able to get a good job right out of the door because you know your shit. IF you are one of those few, you will get a great education focused on making cutting-edge games.

Unless you are certain, without a shadow of a doubt, that you WILL stand out from the pack, don't go to DigiPen. Not just "the pack" as in the rest of the students: I wouldn't suggest it unless you have the confidence and willpower to make yourself stand out in the professional world.

Most people who apply to DigiPen don't have this confidence. And that's why most dP students don't finish. I think our graduating class was a little over a quarter of our freshman class, and very few of those were people who left "for a job".

Note: I came straight out of high school, and had a piss-poor math education. Willpower is the only reason I made it through sane.

Quote:
I probably saw more hot girls walking to class in one day at the University than all Digipen students combined.

Dude... you probably saw more hot girls walking through the kitchen section at Wal-Mart than all dP students combined. [lol]

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