Does Anyone Actually "Do Anything" Here? :

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32 comments, last by neob 17 years, 1 month ago
Quote:Original post by Xetahex
And I know there's always gonna be experts and there's always gonna be "n00bs" but the thing is I never see anyone in between. I see people who are like "Hi, I've been programming for 8 years now" and then I see "Hi, I don't know what a programming language is but...." (Not to insult the intelligence of anyone, I'm exaggerating) Is it that game programming is just a harder form of programming that requires years of experience first, or is it that no one bothers to talk unless they're totally new or an expert? Maybe it's just me...


I'm confident the forum is *full* of intermediates. They're the people that don't explicitly identify (or are easily recognizable) as experts or n00bs. :)

Game programming in particular does carry certain extra challenges that you don't see in other forms of programming, but it's not as extreme as you might think. Also, game programmers usually *don't* have to deal with complex database systems or anything else involving the word "enterprise"; don't have to maintain decades old code written in ungodly languages like COBOL (it still exists - in unbelievably huge masses - and your sensitive financial information is likely to be highly dependent upon it) and don't have to build systems that model real-world kludges with ridiculous corner cases and exceptions (like, say, the tax code).

And regardless, all programming "requires" in a sense "years of experience", because programming is an art or craft just like painting or music; it's something you dedicate yourself to (to varying degrees), and there is no point at which you can say "I know it all now".

"To practice for a thousand days is called training; to practice for ten thousand days is called refinement." -- Miyamoto Musashi
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Quote:Original post by Xetahex
...I mean, hell I tried and just couldn't do it because I shot too far...

A goal is a tool, nothing more. The trick is to make a useful goal. And when the journey is more important than the destination, then the goal is truly only something to keep you going in the same direction.
Quote:Original post by Xetahex
... and I'm looking at some old code thinking "WTF was I thinking? ...".
I've been programming for more than 30 years and I still ask myself that question occasionally. It's a good sign. Get used to it.
Quote:Original post by Xetahex
...For the experts I ask "What can you do to not be an indefinite 'n00b' ?"...

I love to learn new things, so I am quite happy being an indefinite noob. I will always be a noob to somebody.
John BoltonLocomotive Games (THQ)Current Project: Destroy All Humans (Wii). IN STORES NOW!
I'd like to add that there are in fact a number of professional developers working for major publishers who contribute to the forum here from time-to-time. We truly have a mix of n00b's, intermediates, and seasoned pros...

Graham Rhodes Moderator, Math & Physics forum @ gamedev.net
It is easy to have no programming experience.

It is easy to have learned how to program a long time ago.

Think about it -- if start programming between the ages of 10 and 30, you have 50 to 70 years of being a programmer ahead of you.

At the same time, far more than 90% of the population are not programmers by any stretch of the imagination.

So there are lots of people who can't program, and lots of people with years of programming experience. The people with only a medium bit of programming experience are pretty rare, because they either stop programming (and leave our sample space), or grow out of it.
Probably another 'in betweener' here - enough knowledge of C++ to feel I can do things, but still working out the little details like 'what' and 'how.' ;) I'm one of those GD members that reads more than he writes on the forum - I prefer my PC time to go on development.

For me it's all about persistance. I come up against a wall with something I'm working on, and it's simply a question of whether to break through it or give up. I consider myself to be smart enough to learn, and given that it's clearly not impossible then I just tell myself to keep plugging away until I crack it. Then I write down what I did wrong, and how I corrected it, so next time I'm faced with a similar issue I won't spend 8 hours writing cr*p. Eventually I guess I'll accumulate the ability to stop writing any cr*p at all, and be able to comfortably get on with coding games without feeling that it's just a learning exercise. (Though maybe not!)

Current project: a 'Thrust' type game, very early stages i.e. writing Direct3D rendering stuff sufficient to include some placeholder graphics so I can work on the game itself. This is my first DirectX project, disregarding 'learning exercises,' and frankly it's slow going, though steady. (The 8 hours of cr*p I mentioned was test code for a particle system.)

I think the 'noobs cycle' is the same for anything difficult actually. A parkour forum I am a member of has exactly the same kind of statistics: thousands of members 'on the books' but probably fewer than 10% of them are currently active, and 1% are experienced. The 9% gap, in both parkour and games coding, is a difficult position to occupy without dedication and desire to improve.

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As moderator of Help Wanted (as well as just from browsing the forums as developer journals) I can tell you that in addition to all the great projects that come from the more advanced programmers and the numerous industry professionals that post here there are definitely plenty of people at a more intermediate level that get some great stuff done.

Since it sounds like you could use some specific examples I'll see if I can dig out a short list:

1. 'Stompy', who has been steadily plugging away at learning what he needed to know to create a couple of small but fun games including Stompy's Revenge which a lot of us got some fun out of. I'm under the impression Stompy started off with little or no experience at all when he joined the forums, but he's displayed great commitment and is constantly showing off some progress in his developer journal.

2. David 'Pierre and The Fish for a "One Week One Button" contest that was run in the forums. From what I've read of his posts and journal I believe David has worked as a professional programmer but was starting almost from scratch in the area of game development when he first showed up here at GDNet.

3. The game Jooleem was developed by a GDNet user, although unfortunately I can't remember his handle. IIRC Jooleem was his first game, and he also recruited the composer who provided the music through the Help Wanted forum.


...and for an example that's actively recruiting right now:

4. The guys from Mechnet Online started off pretty much like any other MMO-noob we see posting around here, and were actually two seperate groups working on different projects. They merged into a single team, got rid of a lot of people that weren't really contributing anything and although they havn't yet completed thier game they've got to the stage where they have a working demo and are still plugging away at it.


If you want to find some more examples, take a look at some of the games that have been posted to the Game Development Showcase, and take a look through the Developer Journals, where the most recently updated journals will normally contain a pretty good mix of cool projects from more advanced users, the often more interesting read of progress from intermediate developers, and often one or two people just getting started.




I think it's very important that you remember that everyone has had failed projects at one stage or another, and that even the most advanced programmers here undoubtedly wrote some absolutely horrible code when they were still learning. The difference between those that give up and those that advance is often simply treating these failures as the excellent learning experience they can be rather than letting them get to you.

If you've been setting goals you havn't been able to reach, learn from that and aim for something a bit smaller. Also keep in mind that the advanced programmers only got where they are because they've written a lot of code, and there's no way you'll progress to a more advanced stage yourself without doing the same; stick at your project, or start a new one keeping in mind what you've learned from the old one, and stick with it till you've got something you can be proud of.



There are actually quite a few professionals that frequent the forums, and some of the more skilled members are often working on things that are simply amazing -- but do you know what games I enjoy most? I love playing the simple games some of the beginners manage to make. Often they're just basic clones of older games, but the people who made them are just so happy that they've got something finished, and it's great to see some of the little unique touches people add to things.

- Jason Astle-Adams

When I first started programming, I was totally and completely lost. I didn't understand how people learned how to make games, nor did I understand how complicated even simple games where.

Naturally I started out trying to make my dream FPS game and I failed miserably. I didn't want to make an MMORPG game becuase at the time I started they really weren't that popular (The technology didn't really exist for them yet).

I ended up spending a few years using a piece of authorware and programming in higher level programming languages before eventually attempting C++ again.

My first experience with C++ was making extensions for the authorware I had been using.

Eventually I got confident enough in my C++ skills to attempt a simple game. I started off making a simple pong game in C++ and then I made a breakout game.

Finally I started work on a commercial card game and it took six months and a few thousand lines of code to complete. I learned so much during that project!

That game was done around a year and a half ago. Now I have started to learn 3D game programming and I am making some progress.

I learned a lot of stuff between when I started and where I am at now. Do I think I could make my dream game now? Probally not, however I can make some sort of a game!

The point is that programming like most things in life takes practice. You can't expect to learn a musical instrument in a week and you shouldn't expect to learn programming in a month.

The key to learning is simply to write code. Write lots and lots of code. Write programs that accomplish small little problems that you set. Try to pick projects that are just slighly beyond your skill level so that you get a challange but you are not totally lost.

Hey. I didn't have time to read the whole post, but I too am searching for the fabled middle-ground programmers. When trying to get people to help on my projects, I've found either they are too inexperianced to be of any help, or far too advanced to care about anything I could do. Let's get a group together of intermediate programmers, and see what we can accomplish together!
I was a programming noob about 2.5 years ago. Now look what i've made:

Black Sky
Black Sky A Star Control 2/Elite like game
I hate this whole n00b thing, its stupid. We're all here for the same reason and (disregarding the 'I want to make an MMO gimme some code' threads) I don't see why people should belittle others by calling them childish names.
I also don't see a specific time or position when you can stop and say 'look I am now an experienced coder' in my opinion it just doesn't work like that.

I code and continue to code to have fun. Although I am admittedly now taking things more seriously as I'm studying CS at uni and considering my career options (which shockingly doesn't involve games dev, I want to go into mobile or web development). I have completed maybe 2 out of hundreds of projects mainly because I'm constantly learning new things and going back and re-writing things I never consider my projects 'complete' and I rarely completely give up on a project I just return to it when I feel like it or when I have a new idea to implement.

Ok I'm finished, I never read many other posts so this may be slightly off topic by now :p

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