Quote:Original post by sunandshadow

Quote:Original post by Talroth
Why do you want it MMO? and not simply multiplayer?

MMO is used for 2 things: Marketing (the bad one) and to allow large numbers of player have some effect on the game and interact with each other.

So, if you don't want them to impact the world, then your MMO status becomes nothing more than a flashy buzz word.

Uh, no. Consider GameDev. While not a 'game', a messageboard of this type could be considered a massively multiplayer community. The 'players' have no real effect on each other (ratings aside). There's mostly a lack of marketing. So why are you here? To meet people with a common interest and talk to them, maybe do a group activity with them, right? If gamedev had a diceless roleplaying forum the way many social communities do, that would be even more purely social play. That's why I want it to be an MMO. If you like, think of it as being like a chat room for people belonging to a personal-ad or networking site to get to know one another.

Again, you haven't said anything that supports you GAME being MMO. All you've done is suggest that the game should have a community forum from which you can launch a multiplayer game with the people you meet.

Games like Guild Wars aren't truly 'MMO' games any more than StarCraft or Diablo are.

Hmm, I think I see what my problem has been here. Due to the fact that I have never played an MMO with a real-life friend, I didn't allow for it very well in the design, and also didn't explain very well how it would work. It would not be difficult to travel through the game's levels with a companion unless one of them spent a lot more time playing _and_ was impatient. The levels would not end without warning - it would be quite possible to complete a level's requirements for advancement and then hang around crafting or fighting while your friend completed the level too. Also, levels would probably go in batches, a batch consisting of one level in every location. As long as you were in the batch you could go to a location you had already completed to meet a friend there. Players would be allowed to have several avatars, and there would be economic incentives to always have at least one low and one high level character.

And here's a thought - what if the game was designed to help people make friends? Grouping people together by level, giving them a chat channel for that level where they could ask each other questions, and offering group quests and minigames lay the foundation for this, but I could do something more active. Like, a plot event where an NPC kidnapped the player and put them in jail, this could be expanded to happen to batches of 4 players at once (those who are already buddies would be preferentially taken together) and the NPC's dialogue with the four of them could function as a get-to-know-you exercise for the players.


Talroth - If you believe guild wars isn't an MMO, then my examples of Neopets and Gaia Onlie also would not be MMOs, nor would the design I'm trying to sketch out here. I disagree - I think that the core definition of an MMO is any game which many people can play socially over the internet. And IMHO the purpose of MMOs vs. other types of games is primarily socialization, mainly in the form of talking. A messageboard (of which private forums would function as guilds) should thus be an integral part of the game, not something mostly-separate. This messageboard would be where the diceless roleplaying (largely unrelated to the game's story) mainly took place, and since players of all levels can access it this would be another way friends could easily play together.


SMPryor - Did you catch the fact that the story is not happening for the whole world at once, but instead happens relative to each avatar? When one avatar reaches the end of their individual story, the player can simply create a new character (or probably has already created one) and take a different path through the interactive, branching story. When new content is added to the game it's point will generally be to add new branches within the story. Players would then be motivated to create more avatars to explore these other plot possibilities.


Kaze - Novels with several protagonists have long been one of my favorite kinds. I have studied them and practiced outlining plots for some of my own, and I believe it would not be that difficult to create a virtual world with room for a massive number of protagonists. Of course from each player's view only they would be the protagonist, everyone else would be sidekicks, enemies, or bystanders. As for the romance (and also platonic friendship), it would be available with both the NPCs and the other players, in slightly different forms. Since it would be impossible to measure the growth of a relationship between two players it would probably have to be measured by having the two do tasks together. Building relationships with NPCs would happen via making dialogue and gameplay choices pleasing to that NPC, completing any quests they offered, and possibly one could give them.

Back to the definition of massively multiplayer, as I see it the essential advantage of this type of game over a mutliplayer game is that there are always plenty of other people available to play with. The type of interactive virtual world I am envisioning would never work with less than 10 people in every level at all times, and would work better with 50 people in each level at all times.


WorldPlanter - Actually I think I read your seasons thread when it happened. [smile] It's an interesting concept. I think it would be problematic in that people who couldn't/didn't want to play a lot or regularly would get left behind, and people would be discouraged from joining if a season hadn't just started. It would be quite unpleasant if the game turned into a race to see who could level fastest by playing all day every day or using hacks. Maybe you could have staggered servers such that there was always a season starting somewhere, and a limited number of plot-related objectives which could be accomplished each week... I dunno. I like my gameplay experience to depend only on me and to happen on my schedule.

I really like this idea. It adds the element that's been missing for a long time (except in The Matrix Online), a coherent story. Also, you could even have things like cinematics, where you, and the group you're travling with, are featured as the protagonists. sunandshadow, I think you've really got something, because the more I think about it, the more I like it!

At first I didn't think much of the idea, but now I can see the appeal -- a world that actually changes with the affect that your character has upon it. Sure, there are some challenges to overcome, but I think its feasible. As I pondered on it, I began to consider some ways to make this possible. Here's how I envision the proposed concept working. Be warned, it gets a little complicated!

Your game would contain -- but not be limited to* -- a number of specific areas containing certain events or plot chapters. When a player enters an area, there would be several quests available there to complete. There are three identical segments to each area -- a pre-quest, quest-active, and post-quest segment.

A group of players goes to an area (call it 'A') before they're ready to take on the quests there. They enter the pre-quest segment of that area. [The players might be partied, or independent, or in multiple parties, it doesn't matter, it's a public segment.] Players in this area can explore, hunt, craft, interact with residents and other players. There is no need to restrict them from the area, so they feel free to roam the world. Quest scenarios are visible or expressed by residents, but only in general, "someday this could be a problem, and someday we'd like to fix it" terms.

At a certain point their situation changes so that they are now imperceptibly transported to the quest-active segment of area A (which has just been reset after a previous group completed it -- to the current players, these are brand new problems). This segment is for players that are ready for the quests associated with the area and haven't completed the quests yet. When players come here they see real problems that need real solutions, really soon. "Help! My baby has been snatched by the Gnoll King!" or "Please help us wipe out all the goblins before they take over our town!" or what-have-you.

When all of the quests there that must be completed in this area are completed, the players are essentially transported (again, without realizing or caring) to the post-quest segment of area 'A' -- where the changes affected will always remain so, the player supposedly having "made his mark" there. At this point the quest-active version of the area is reset for the next group.

The post-quest area is a more-or-less happy, "Thank you for solving all our problems, why don't you stay for tea" scenario. Here again, as always, they can hunt, craft, and interact with other players who have also completed the quest.

Meanwhile, the quest-active segment of the next area ('B') might be occupied by players completing a quest. So players in the post-quest segment of area 'A' only have access to the pre-quest segment of area 'B' -- until the quest-active segment of area 'B' is reset.

Once players in the quest-active segment of area 'B' are switched to that area's post-quest segment, the quest-active segment is reset, and players in the post-quest area of area 'A' now have access to the quest-active segment in area 'B'. Suddenly the player who is waiting around in the post-quest segment of area 'A' discovers that the story in that segment has expanded, but it encourages them to move on to area 'B'. At the same time, players who have moved on to the pre-quest area of area 'B' experience a similar situation -- they are automatically transported to the quest-active segment of that area, and they see the very initial stages of the newly-reset quests for that area (i.e. the goblin horde rushing down from the mountains).

Whew if you followed that, congratulations. Now how do we address the problem of different-level players interacting? Well remember, I *suggested that these "chapter" or "event" areas consist of only part of the game. There should still be general areas -- like cities, and open "low-impact quest" areas where players are only asked to do things that needn't have a major world-impact. "Bring me ten loaves of bread" or "go kill me a dire wolf" for instance.

Quote:Original post by SMPryor

Quote:Original post by sunandshadowSMPryor - Did you catch the fact that the story is not happening for the whole world at once, but instead happens relative to each avatar? When one avatar reaches the end of their individual story, the player can simply create a new character (or probably has already created one) and take a different path through the interactive, branching story. When new content is added to the game it's point will generally be to add new branches within the story. Players would then be motivated to create more avatars to explore these other plot possibilities.

Okay, I've gone back and read the entire thread. I don't really understand what you are getting at when you say "individual story". I think you need to clarify the exact nature of the type of "story" you are talking about. Is it a story which every player goes through or does the story fork at the individual level relative to the choices a player makes? That is, could a player make a choice in Chapter 1 which completely alters the nature and feel of chater 2 while another player's chapter 2 is different as well because he made a different choice in Chapter 1? Another thing which I still don't understand is the story not being the same for everyone at one time. For example, (other economics) what does a player in chapter 1 have to do with a player in chapter 4? Are players at different chapters effectively nonexistent to one another?

Ok, I hadn't totally worked out a story outline, but I'll brainstorm a little here... each player begins by being dropped unexpectedly into a strange place. Perhaps abducted by aliens or by magic. All starting players were abducted as a group. The first decision which individuates the players' stories from each other is that of reaction/personality: are they angry, timid, curious, polite. Second, the player will be presented with a short list of goals and asked to pick which one is their highest priority. All goals will be available for all players, but priority helps the game cater to each player's desired story type and play style. As a whole the game is a story of a group of people reacting in diverse ways to a shared situation, like Chaucer's Canterbury tales or the experiences of all the people in a wagon train or a platoon of soldiers.

As usual the first level will be a tutorial level teaching basic game functions like how to fight, how to use the market, how to craft, how to use other game utilities. Human NPCs who have been there slightly longer than the player will give the lessons and head factions who believe different theories about why they're there and how they ought to act in response.

Second level might be a school - here there are alien/magical NPCs who won't tell the players why they're there, but instead seem to be testing or observing the players. The players discover that they have some new ability (magic? shapeshifting?) they never had before, adding the mystery of why and how they attained it. This is still a tutorial level, teaching advanced and PvP combat, crafting, perhaps introducing the ability to have a house or a pet. This cast of NPCs will recur throughout the game, this is where players start building positive or negative relationships with them. Positive relationships will get you helpful hints and gifts, but negative ones may also get you useful clues and training fights.

Third level the human NPCs and aliens/magicals are starting to have conflict among themselves, and the player can side with one faction or another or try to temporize between them. Relationships continue to develop, affecting what quests each NPC offers to each player. New gameplay continues to be introduced: perhaps the ability to bribe NPCs, do party quests and another minigame or two. This level will climax in the player being able to leave the area.

Fourth level is exploration, either of the alien/magical society and/or of ruins and wilderland, not sure. Levels will try to alternate between exploration ones and more confined/story-heavy ones. All combat options will now be available, so people who only want to fight can stop here, maybe make a side-level for them to hang out when not fighting. Those who choose to advance the plot will be able to pursue one or more of several NPC subplots such as romances, mysteries, helping solve NPCs' problems, and starting to find a place in this society or in a faction rebelling against it. Given that lost of humans were abducted by lots of aliens/magicals, it's totally consistent to have all these different political options and social interactions available in a small area. It's also logical that some NPCs would favor some players and not others, although players will have to suspend their disbelief over the same NPC falling in love with each of several players, and that sort of thing. That's pretty much inevitable in a multiplayer game.

Fifth level, now some plot twist needs to happen, probably based on the political alliance the player chose. Another new setting, preferably. Sorry I don't know exactly what needs to happen here - a strength of the aliens/magicals discovered, or something about the new powers and the worldbuilding revealed. Something like destiny or evolution which gives direction to the chaotic society of the previous level, maybe forcing enemies to work together...

Sixth level, back to the school to confront the system or because of having been recaptured, understanding what happened and why, judging the ethics and consequences of this... this is kind of getting away from the original question of how the story would be different for each player, isn't it? Basically the main differences would be in how each NPC acts towards each player. Yes, players in different levels are effectively non-existent to each other, in the way that someone on a different continent is effectively nonexistent to me. You can easily talk to them by PM or in the forums, you can meet them within a cooperative minigame or a PvP battle, but you can't play through the main game with them unless you are at the same level.


Irbrain - "There should still be general areas -- like cities, and open "low-impact quest" areas where players are only asked to do things that needn't have a major world-impact. "Bring me ten loaves of bread" or "go kill me a dire wolf" for instance." Why should there be areas like this? I'm not disagreeing, I just don't understand what their value would be. Is that any different from the minigames and social forums which are available to players of every level?


BenThereDoneThat - thanks, glad you like it! [smile]