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Mongooseman

Microsoft Visual C++ 6.0

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A teacher recently offered to sell me Microsoft Visual C++ 6.0 Professional Edition for $25, and I was wondering if that is a good deal. I'm new to programming and game development, and I am planning on getting some books and learning C++ this summer, but I wasn't sure if this would be helpful to me, being an outdated product. I ran into a similar problem with Visual Basic in the past, so I want to be sure that I'm making the right move before I spend any money.

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Extremely bad deal. MSVC6, which dates from 1998, is inferior in every possible way to the current version, Visual Studio 2005.

And Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition is downloadable for free from Microsoft's website.

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VS6 is an ok program. However, Microsoft offers Visual Studio Express Edition for free at: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/downloads/ - seperate downloads for C#, Visual Basic, C++, and J#. My understanding is that these editions optimize less than professional editions, but free is a great price, and they will have support for all the newest Microsoft technologies.

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To provide an alternative viewpoint, the CDs your proffessor wants to sell you means you don't have to download anything, and you'll be pretty much ready to go straight out of the box. The free downloads require you to download other things in order to really get going programming. It's all free, but you generally have to know what you still need to download. For instance, I believe the libraries for windows programming needs to be downloaded seperately.

On the other hand, most modern 3rd party libraries (such as Ogre3D for instance) won't support MSVC 6. It also doesn't have .NET (it predates it), and the C++ support is a little wonky on advanced features such as templates (they weren't finalized yet by the ANSI comittee when MSVC 6 came out).

In essence, if you've never programmed a day in your life, you might be better off starting with MSVC 6 than trying to download all the different express editions and their dependancies. They can be a little frustrating to set up. If you know what you're doing, the express editions are much better.

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Visual Studio 6 was before ANSI standardized C++, so it's not only outdated but doesn't even properly support the language. Most recent libraries won't work with it. I don't even think the newer versions of DirectX will work with it. The program is just extremely inferior in every way to the free express versions.

Also keep in mind that buying the CDs doesn't give you a legal license to use it. The software license is non-transferable, one more mark against spending any money on it.

And $25 could buy alot of ice cream... mmm... Chubby Hubby...

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Quote:
Original post by Palidine
NO!!! it's awful.

You can get a better version (Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition) for free directly from MS.

-me


Quoted for emphisis.

Quote:
Original post by ToohrVyk
Extremely bad deal. MSVC6, which dates from 1998, is inferior in every possible way to the current version, Visual Studio 2005.

And Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition is downloadable for free from Microsoft's website.


Quoted for emphisis.

Quote:
Original post by DigiDude
Save your $25 and buy an ice cream. You'll be glad you did.


Quoted for emphisis.

Quote:
Original post by JBourrie
Visual Studio 6 was before ANSI standardized C++, so it's not only outdated but doesn't even properly support the language. Most recent libraries won't work with it.


Quoted for more emphisis -- DirectX, one of Microsoft's own, major libraries, is among the libraries no longer supported for VS6.

Quote:
Original post by Legendweaver
VS6 is an ok program.


Quoted to completely contradict with:

Visual Studio 6 predates the C++ standard, which has been around 9 bloody YEARS now.

I am not the only one who considers "Visual C++ 6.0" to be an oxymoron, and false advertizing. I would reject an offer to take a copy off anyone's hands were they to pay me $25, just on principle.

In conclusion, this sumarizes my opinion on VS6:

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Quote:
Original post by NumsgilIn essence, if you've never programmed a day in your life, you might be better off starting with MSVC 6 than trying to download all the different express editions and their dependancies. They can be a little frustrating to set up. If you know what you're doing, the express editions are much better.

I still think I'd recommend Visual C++ 2005 Express, even if you have to download the platform SDK before you can write Win32 apps. He says he wants to learn C++ this summer; how can he do that without a compiler that's at least almost standards-compliant? [wink]

JBourrie, I hadn't thought of the licensing issue, but that's a very good point as well.

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It's an unused version, so I don't think that licensing will be a problem, but after the comments here, I don't think that I'll make the deal. I don't have much programming experience (just a little in Blitz Basic), but I'd rather take my chances setting up a better, free version than paying $25 for an easier, inferior one. Thanks for the help, everyone, and any further comments are still welcome. :)

Also, it's a bit ironic that I was eating ice cream as I read through the replies.

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Quote:
Original post by Mongooseman
...
Also, it's a bit ironic that I was eating ice cream as I read through the replies.
Man, I'm good!

See? you feel better already, don't you?[smile]

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I'll be the odd one out here.

I've moved to VS-2003/05 for .net stuff, but prefer VS6 for standard Windows/WTL applications. It also works nicely for OpenGL and DirectX9 stuff; Torque 1.5 uses a fairly recent DirectX9 SDK without any problems. Ogre gets around the C++ StdLib/template problems with a library. I wonder what percentage of programmers would see major problems with VS6? The major one I've ran into is the scope of variables declared in a for statement. VS6 is less cluttered than VS 2003/05. VS6 will remain my main editor for a few more years, at least; and add-ins such as Visual Assist X are adding the much needed features.

Remote debugging under VS-2003/05 is a major pain to configure (unsupported under VS 2005 Express Edition), it's very simple using VS6.

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Quote:
Original post by Palidine
NO!!! it's awful.

You can get a better version (Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition) for free directly from MS.

-me
Ocassionally MS has offers where you can get Visual Studio 2005 Standard Edition for free; the latest offer may be an option for you (expires 6/30/2007, US-only).

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Quote:
Original post by cdoty
I'll be the odd one out here.

I've moved to VS-2003/05 for .net stuff, but prefer VS6 for standard Windows/WTL applications. It also works nicely for OpenGL and DirectX9 stuff;

Err, it isn't supported for DirectX. And hasn't been for at least a couple of years.
And while it may work with Windows applications, it does not work with... C++. Which is a bit of a drawback for someone looking to get into C++ development.

Quote:
Torque 1.5 uses a fairly recent DirectX9 SDK without any problems. Ogre gets around the C++ StdLib/template problems with a library. I wonder what percentage of programmers would see major problems with VS6?

Roughly 110%.
Of course, not all of them may *realize* that the problems they run into are because they're running a compiler that doesn't even understand the language they think they're programming in.
Quote:
and add-ins such as Visual Assist X are adding the much needed features.

What, like C++ support?

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I've got VS2005 Pro, and VC++6 as well as VB6.

I think VC++6 is a cleaner, less bloated, faster IDE by a long way. However, it looks completely dated and the compiler is a joke (it didn't even understand <iostream>, threw up errors). However, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you might be able to hack it to use the more modern VS2005 compilation tools if you want the non-bloaty IDE but all the power of VS2005.

VS2005 has an interface to die for, though, it looks so good. But it's bloaty, slow and occasionally annoying as well as being sometimes difficult to find things.

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Quote:
Original post by Mongooseman
A teacher recently offered to sell me Microsoft Visual C++ 6.0 Professional Edition for $25,

Report him or get him fired. How can anyone be a teacher and do such a thing? Especially to a beginner programmer????
Quote:
and I was wondering if that is a good deal.

As others have said, no.
Quote:
I'm new to programming and game development, and I am planning on getting some books and learning C++ this summer,

Good place to look at.
Quote:
but I wasn't sure if this would be helpful to me, being an outdated product. I ran into a similar problem with Visual Basic in the past, so I want to be sure that I'm making the right move before I spend any money.

You made the right move. Believe me. Click on the link ask around for some books, and take a look at the C++ workshop we have here on GameDev.

Good Luck with the learning.

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Quote:
Original post by Spoonbender
Err, it isn't supported for DirectX. And hasn't been for at least a couple of years.


I know it supports at least the Oct '05 version. Torque Game Engine Advanced uses it.

Quote:
Original post by Spoonbender
And while it may work with Windows applications, it does not work with... C++. Which is a bit of a drawback for someone looking to get into C++ development.

Quote:
Torque 1.5 uses a fairly recent DirectX9 SDK without any problems. Ogre gets around the C++ StdLib/template problems with a library. I wonder what percentage of programmers would see major problems with VS6?

Roughly 110%.
Of course, not all of them may *realize* that the problems they run into are because they're running a compiler that doesn't even understand the language they think they're programming in.
Quote:
and add-ins such as Visual Assist X are adding the much needed features.

What, like C++ support?


It supports C++, maybe not all of the cool features of a newer spectification.
But, C++ doesn't support all of the cool features of C#, should I switch to C# because of that?

I guess, as a hobby programmer you can use the latest and greatest. When you have to ship 'real' applications to 'real' customers a bit more thought goes into selecting tools and SDKs. All of those new C++ features don't help create bug free applications. It's fun to play, but at some point in life you'll have to create 'real' applications, if you want to make a living as a programmer.

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Quote:
Original post by cdoty
Quote:
Original post by Spoonbender
Err, it isn't supported for DirectX. And hasn't been for at least a couple of years.


I know it supports at least the Oct '05 version. Torque Game Engine Advanced uses it.

Oct '05, yes. Some of us are in '07 now... :)

[quote]Original post by Spoonbender
And while it may work with Windows applications, it does not work with... C++. Which is a bit of a drawback for someone looking to get into C++ development.

Quote:
It supports C++, maybe not all of the cool features of a newer spectification.But, C++ doesn't support all of the cool features of C#, should I switch to C# because of that?

Eh? C++ and C# are different languages. But the language that VC++ 6.0 understands is *not* C++. it is fairly close to what C++ looked like before it was standardized. But that is notC++.

Quote:

I guess, as a hobby programmer you can use the latest and greatest. When you have to ship 'real' applications to 'real' customers a bit more thought goes into selecting tools and SDKs.

Yes, and a major part of that thought is about picking a tool that is at least somewhat correct and bug-free, and doesn't require half a dozen service packs.

Quote:

All of those new C++ features don't help create bug free applications.

They don't?
I'd say a compiler that acts as you expect to is a major help in writing bug-free apps.
I'd say a compiler that accepts the code you are taught (whether from a book, a school course or an online tutorial) is a fairly good start on writing bug-free code.
Whereas one that requires you to take correct code, and then break it certainly won't help you fix any bugs.

Quote:
It's fun to play, but at some point in life you'll have to create 'real' applications, if you want to make a living as a programmer.


I do make a living as a programmer. (well, part-time, anyway. Still have to find time for studying too) And I know my coworkers would kill me if I started wanting to use an unsupported, obsolete which doesn't even compile the language we're writing code in.

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...but I think you might be able to hack it to use the more modern VS2005 compilation tools if you want the non-bloaty IDE but all the power of VS2005.

And lose use of VS2005s excellent debugger? I think I'd die without STL debugging.

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