Quote:Original post by Mithrandir

Quote:Original post by Omegavolt
Or maybe, I don't know, not tempt us with knowledge, or hey! here's a thought, not let Satan in the Garden of Eden.

God doesn't want people to eat from the tree of knowledge
The tree of knowledge provides people with knowledge.
Therefore, God doesn't want people to have knowledge.

Suddenly, the popularity of religion makes a lot of sense.

You do realize that's not correct, right? [rolleyes]

As a syllogism it is clearly invalid. As a description of what's going on in Genesis, it seems pretty good, because we can rephrase it thusly (explicitly including Mith's unstated premise) to be valid:

God wishes people not to eat of the tree of knowledge.
The tree of knowledge gives knowledge.
There are no other sources of knowledge in the Garden.
Therefore, God wishes people not to have knowledge.

Presumably you would dispute the third item, but oh well.

Quote:Original post by Machaira

Quote:Original post by Mithrandir

Quote:Original post by Omegavolt
Or maybe, I don't know, not tempt us with knowledge, or hey! here's a thought, not let Satan in the Garden of Eden.

God doesn't want people to eat from the tree of knowledge
The tree of knowledge provides people with knowledge.
Therefore, God doesn't want people to have knowledge.

Suddenly, the popularity of religion makes a lot of sense.

You do realize that's not correct, right? [rolleyes]

Being raised Christian, I recall many times finding verses that indicated the only true knowledge comes from God and it was "bad" to study "worldly" knowledge. You can interpret that how you want, but I never liked the idea of limited learning no matter who is comes from or what it refers to...

Why does God send to Heaven/Hell anyway? What does it accomplish? It doesn't preserve order on Earth because many people are unaware of its existence or its nature. It doesn't reform people because its forever. Is it just to satisfy God's emotional needs?

Like I said before, I think if there was a God who had rules for everyone, he would reveal them to everyone, or at least use better messengers. If he wants people to have faith, that's fine, but he shouldn't be so harsh. If we can't help but sin, he should also be a bit less harsh about it.

This whole "seek God and you will find him" isn't true in my expierance as people "find" different gods.

Quote:Original post by Machaira
A very cursory explanation:

http://blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/1394.html

That doesn't explain anything. It just says exactly what you said, only with more words and a few bible quotes thrown in for good measure, neither of which actually address the problem, nor do they make any sense whatsoever.

Let's try some simple yes/no questions. If you need to qualify your answers with some additional elaboration then go ahead, but I would still like a straight Yes/No answer for each one.

1. Is God omniscient?
2. Is God omnipotent?
3. Did God know Satan would fall before the event?
4. Did God create Satan?
5. Did God grant Satan free will?
6. Is God capable of smiting Satan into non-existence at any time?
7. Does Satan continue to exist?
8. Did God know that Satan would tempt mankind before the event?
9. Did God know that Satan's temptation would succeed, before the event?
10. Did God create mankind?
11. Did God place man, and Satan in the garden of eden along with the tree, knowing full well beforehand what would happen?
12. Would it have been a violation of mankind's free will if God had chosen NOT to put the tree in the garden in the first place?
13. Would it have been a violation of mankind's free will if God had chosen to NOT allow Satan into the garden?
14. Would it have been a violation of mankind's free will if God had chosen to smite Satan into non-existence or better yet, not create him in the first place?
15. Based on your answers to all the above, do you think God bears any responsibility for the 'fall' of mankind?

Without the ability to choose, which would have been the case without having the tree of knowledge of good and evil (not just the tree of knowledge as some here have seemed to tried to hint) free will would have been meaningless.

15. Regardless of my answers, God bears no responsibility for man's choices. That's what free will is all about.

Quote:Original post by skittleo
Being raised Christian, I recall many times finding verses that indicated the only true knowledge comes from God and it was "bad" to study "worldly" knowledge.

Huh?!? Can you show the verse(s) that say it's "bad" to study "worldly" knowledge? Also, define "worldly". If you define it as scripture usually does, I would say that it's definitely bad to study sinful things.

edit: Consider:

Pro 1:1 ¶ The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

Pro 1:5 A wise [man] will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

Pro 1:21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Pro 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

Quote:Original post by skittleo
You can interpret that how you want, but I never liked the idea of limited learning no matter who is comes from or what it refers to...

Depends on what is being limited (see above).

[Edited by - Machaira on May 21, 2007 5:47:17 PM]

Quote:15. Regardless of my answers, God bears no responsibility for man's choices. That's what free will is all about.

Nice dodge! You should be a politician! [grin]

Quote:Original post by JBourrie

Quote:15. Regardless of my answers, God bears no responsibility for man's choices. That's what free will is all about.

Nice dodge! You should be a politician! [grin]

Oh please. You know as well as I do they're leading questions.

Quote:Original post by Machaira

Quote:Original post by JBourrie

Quote:15. Regardless of my answers, God bears no responsibility for man's choices. That's what free will is all about.

Nice dodge! You should be a politician! [grin]

Oh please. You know as well as I do they're leading questions.

Oh, of course they are. If I were in your position I wouldn't have answered them either, because it seriously hurts your position.

Of course, those questions were purposely leading, because the path they follow points out a number of holes in Christian "logic" that we (at least I) have never heard a rational explanation for. Religion isn't rational. It's about faith, not logic, and therefore any set of logical questions will be leading. Your best bet is to not defend religion based on reasoning and logic, because it's impossible to do so.