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bl4ckj4ck777

2-Dimensional MMORPG

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bl4ckj4ck777    122
I've been toying around with the idea of a 2d MMORPG, a few are already out there, but I feel like they're largely undeveloped because of the major MMORPG's out there that aren't 2d, like WoW, or Everquest. Of the many reasons I keep coming back to toy with this idea is because with the larger MMORPG's it takes a very powerful system, and a great internet connection to play, but with 2D MMOs, it seems less important. For those of us that can't just drop thousands of dollars on great gaming computers and lightning fast connections, 2D MMOs could still be feasible. In any case, the streams of data would seem to be much less, and with the right development team, it could actually be much more versatile than a 3D MMORPG in the aspects of character creation, battle graphics, and more fantasy like maps. The most important difference would be that the gameplay would be much smoother, and more intuitional. More like the games you would see in a "Platform" category. I've been looking around for the current 2D MMORPGs, and the most intruiging to me was Maplestory, and at first, I thought I had found the game that I had been thinking of, but after playing it for awhile I realized the game was fundementally flawed in more ways than one. The main reason I brought it up though, was because of how it was revolutionary because it was a side scroller, not a traditional 2D RPG that would be a top view. The next great aspect was the "Cash Shop" which essentially funds the game, but doesn't make it so people have to drop 15 dollars a month to play the game. Even though Maplestory is not as funded as big game titles like "World of Warcraft", I found that the character creation was incredibly versatile, and with a bit more work from artists, could easily be quadrupled. This could potentially combine 2 gaming categories: Platform, and RPG (MMO). MMORPG's hold a great interest to many people because you can essentially have a character who's reputation you can build while interacting with hundreds to hundreds of thousands of other players in a community. However, with most the current MMORPGs, people lose interest because of the monotony of leveling up and having to play the game for months in order to get far enough to unlock the better features like mounts, etc. Making it a combo of a Platform and RPG game could add another essential aspect to the gameplay, which can be described as "tricking". "Tricking" comes from many games, from FPS to Platforms, and the best way for me to portray this to you is to give the example of "Strafe Jumping". For instance, in Quake III Arena, and many others, it added a whole extra community to the game styles, and grabbed the attention of so many people, that eventually maps and whole mods were made in order to cater to the limits of "Strafing". Other kinds of "Trickign" could be implemented through the physics of a platform game quite easily. Think of the possibilities with a 2D MMORPG, and how limited so many of them are right now. Since I don't want everyone to lose interest in this topic before they finish reading, I'll just stop here for now, and if it sparks some of your interest, and you want to hear more, then post away =].

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Sirisian    2263
nice, I can imagine many people here are actually making 2D mmorpgs. I for one have been working on one for a long time. Hate to say it though, the bandwidth for a 2D mmo and 3D mmo isn't that much different. I'm making a top down shooter and the only benefit I can see is one less axis. Also the work for a 2D high quality mmo is only a fraction less than the work that would be put into a high quality 3D counterpart. Trust me, while a 2D mmo looks like a fun and more easy way, in the long run it's not really. I mean for instance when I created my line of sight and other algorithms for my game, I didn't have any source code to follow. This is unlike many 3D games where it's been done before.

I guess it depends on the overall complexity of the game. If you were shooting for a simple 2D mmorpg then it might only take a year to complete by oneself, then a few more months to get the content up to par. Nevertheless it's a lot of work, and changing the number of dimensions to 2 doesn't miraculously make everything easier.

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ShinkaFudan    100
As a sidenote, you may want to try out Global Goonzu.

Goonzu is a 2D MMORPG that has quite a following in Korea, and has recently expanded to Japan and the global community (Whereas the English version is named "Global" and is available in Europe, America, and other areas...) and is really quite amazing.

It is based on economic and political power instead of raw force of players. Each player starts out with a customizable character but quickly falls into a world full of cities to become residents of, with political rallying to become leaders of parts of each town or the entire town itself, eventually working up to become the leader of the entire world, the Goonzu.

The Goonzu serves not only as the premiere member of the game that chooses a lot of things about the way the economy works, he is also the mediator/ambassador between the players, the town leaders, and the administrators/programmers.




It's really a fantastic system. Check it out if you get the chance: http://global.goonzu.com
PS - Oh, and yeah, if you could, put "Korberos" in as the player that recommended you... heh.



-----


Oh, and on a side note, I've made a few MMORPG frames/engines for lesser-known programming languages, and though I am not a big help with C++ because I'm just learning it, I can aid you if you have any specific questions about multiplayer systems using Winsock, as I've become very knowledgeable on the subject.

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bl4ckj4ck777    122
"Trust me, while a 2D mmo looks like a fun and more easy way, in the long run it's not really. I mean for instance when I created my line of sight and other algorithms for my game, I didn't have any source code to follow. This is unlike many 3D games where it's been done before."

I didn't know about the small difference in bandwidth, but even so, every little bit counts. I wasn't trying to say that it would be easier to make a 2D MMORPG, but I don't necessarily think it would be harder. In any case, my real point was that it's easier to make a really dramatic statement with styles of characters and better looking skills when it's a matter of drawing it out instead of assembling hundreds of polygons to try and make the same effect. It's the classic sprites vs. polygons.

To me, it's like a "Frank Miller" effect, whereas he can translate the stunning dramatic and artistic effects of a comic book strip into a movie, I feel like a game could be better represented with original art instead of polygons, especially when it's a matter of your own personal character.

Moreso would be the implementation of the "Platform" gamestyle. While the artistic effects could be spectacular, I think that having an interesting gameplay plays just as big a part as the character designing. In the ideas I've written down and just remembered, you would have a level up system that works on two levels, main level ups, and stat level ups. For instance, since "Tricking" would add a completely different aspect to the game, I thought it would be appropriate to make the level systems change accordingly. For instance, you would be able to choose an attribute from the "stat" menu, and increase it separately, or at the same time as the main levels. I.E. You choose the "speed" stat, and you'd be able to increase that stat alone by running around (running and walking are available) and dashing/jumping. So you could be increasing your stats while perfecting the trick you've been working on.

I don't know if any of you played many platform games out there, but my personal favorite in terms of smoothness and fluidity of attacks and skills would have to be the "Megaman X" series. I don't know about the character styles, or the enemies, or anything to that effect, but I really like how you can easily dash and jump with the intuition of a beginner player.

What I'm really trying to get across is that most MMORPGs revolve around stats and quests and armors, and while I like that idea, and don't want to disregard it, I do however want to add somthing more, like "tricking" and original character designs that have a fluidity in their motions.

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Derakon    456
There are indeed things you can do with 2D art that you can't easily do with 3D, though certain things like cell-shading are shortening the gap. I personally find 2D pixel art to be a major pain to make, though.

One other 2D MMORPG that deserves mention here is Puzzle Pirates. You might find the art style too "cute", but it does show what can be done without throwing tons of resources (either on the client side, or on the developer side) at a problem.

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sunandshadow    7426
I've been trying to get a 2d MMORPG project started. But, my priorities are more along the lines of creating an immersive interactive story and a game where crafting minigames are an optional substitute for combat. Except for combat, where sidescrolling and platforms are nice, I would otherwise prefer to see an isometric set-up with square tiles, rather like that of Harvest Moon: Back to Nature.

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bl4ckj4ck777    122
Indeed, there are some great ways to make 3D animations look nicer, but I still like the crisp smooth motions of a well animated sprite. Both ways take a lot of work, but both have their own strengths as well. Personally I like the way a hand drawn sprite looks. Anyway, I don't know how feasible this will be in the end, because it would take a lot of people devoting alot of time to being on a development team that they may never meet.

I myself am an artist, I love character design, and making different styles for a base character structure would actually make me want to get up in the morning sometimes. While I don't know a whole lot about coding and making it so a sprite sheet will work in game, I do know how to make a sprite look smooth.

To be honest, I'm getting alot more replies on this than I thought, I was just going to pitch the idea, maybe get some other people thinking about what they really wanted in an MMO. The more I think about it, the more I want to put this into a real project. However, without a development team, I'd never get anywhere, so unless there's a good bunch of you out there that would be willing to help...

In any case, I've got a Notepad document with some of the aspects of this "Ideal" 2D MMORPG. If anyone would like to take a look at it, I'd gladly send it. It covers race/class, as well as just some other weird gameplay ideas.

If it ever did get developed, I think it would set itself apart in gameplay, and might even make some money.

I took a look at the Puzzle Pirate's website, and I like how it looks like it would be easy to add on to any of those characters w/o much effort. However, the cute factor does come in, and the same thing happened in Maplestory. I'd like it to be at least a little bit more adult than those. Gaming isn't only appealing to the younger generations anymore, and I like the styles of the older characters better.

Although, maybe that's another point to be made? Being able to choose the age/size of your character? Maybe only out of a set of 3 to conserve server speed, but it may add another element just the same. Not to be the guy who complains about how things are done, but it seems like most MMORPGs have character creation systems that make it so you don't get good looking equipment/alterations until you either spend money or reach an ungodly level. I like to be able to tell myself apart from other characters, even if I'm not exactly granduer, before I reach level 40.

So, upon request, I could get some concept art out?

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Imgelling    222
Just as a side note, check out www.Tibia.com, great game, 2D and is 10 years old! 30 or so servers to choose from and its updated twice a year (summer and holiday updates) Its free but also a "premium" pay accounts to allow access to other parts of the world. Not as pretty as 3D games, but I have been playing it for 2+ years while WoW only lasted 2 months with me.

It can be played with any computer that supports DX5 and has engine support for DX9 and OpenGL. Also, can be played with dial-up.

BTW, I do not and have not ever worked for CipSoft. Sorry if this sounded like a commercial. I just enjoy this simple yet complex game.

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Bacon and Eggs    163
I for one... like this idea... I like it so much, it's what I'm plunking around with on my spare time. I mixed both worlds though, 2.5d?. Everything about it is 3D based math, but it's rendered with sprites. This was after playing a couple of rounds of paper mario.

I also figured that I could also cobble together a sprite faster then I can a poseable mesh of wireframe too. At my pace of coding and pixeling, I should have something ready to pop online in another 18 months :P... it's only been tinkered with for 6 years now.

3D can be swapped in easy enough... open gl... same with networking... but after many years of frustration of not getting anything complete I figure I would rather want to get something done first, you know, so I'm not so much an anonomous poster on the nets somewhere wishing to have made a game... that people would enjoy.

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Gyrthok    412
There's also Furcadia and Ultima Online (both isometric). This is quite the neat idea, i'd love to run around in a metroid MMO with other players and explore the vast depths of its pixeled dungeons. ^^

Quote:
I mixed both worlds though, 2.5d?. Everything about it is 3D based math, but it's rendered with sprites. This was after playing a couple of rounds of paper mario.


Sounds like Ultima Underworld (haven't played paper mario), yet another game i'd love to run around in online.

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bl4ckj4ck777    122
I'm stuck between letting this idea go, and going full board into development. Like I said earlier, my only issue is the Dev Team. I could post for one I suppose, but not being a coder drastically decreases my chances of finding people willing to help out on that part.

Well, I guess I could post and see if anyone is interested.

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll add more info on classes upon request.

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Sirisian    2263
just learn to program, it's not too bad and is very fun in the long run. Much more interesting than just designing the ideas I'd say. Implementing them is the best part. This will also give you a realistic view on how the gameplay and such will work.

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markadrake    104
Well one thing that appears in my mind when anyone mentions a 2d mmorpg is Chrono Trigger. What a beautiful, 2d sprite based rpg game! I'm actually going to go start it back up.

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Thermodynamics    443
There was a small inconsequential 2D MMORPG out there called UO (short for Ultima Online). Looking into that might help solve some of your quandaries. Other than that one there is also Puzzle Pirates, Chrono Trigger, and the one that Thevenin runs (I can't remember the name.) Maybe if you look a bit more you can find some existing work that will help.

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SimonForsman    7642
Quote:
Original post by Thermodynamics
There was a small inconsequential 2D MMORPG out there called UO (short for Ultima Online). Looking into that might help solve some of your quandaries. Other than that one there is also Puzzle Pirates, Chrono Trigger, and the one that Thevenin runs (I can't remember the name.) Maybe if you look a bit more you can find some existing work that will help.


Shouldn't that be: There is a "small" ..... (UO Kingdom Reborn is in closed beta right now and the Stygian Abyss expansion is scheduled to be released later this year)

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bl4ckj4ck777    122
Alright, I've got someone else interested, Wicked Delight is another artist who is quite knowledgable in sprites, and wants to combine our ideas and get a real MMORPG going. It's going to be unique, and we'll post something more about it on another topic that is more into the details of the game.

We aren't exactly outright looking for coders at the moment, but I'm keeping my eyes open so that we can have someone lined up. We've both got some animations going, and are working out issues having to deal with storyline/gameplay.

So if you want to be part of the team, and maybe part of the potential revenue in the end, give me a private message. I'll be online tonight, and probably tomorrow.

By the way, I'd learn to code, but if I were to try to learn to code on such a large project, I'd most likely screw it up, and with making sprites at the same time, that would put so much of the workload on me that this would never get completed. I would really have a real dev team on this one.

Thanks for listening.

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