What I prefer is not really to worry about your stats at all, and instead to earn skills in a boolean way. You wither have a skill or you don't.
Say you have a skill called pickpocket, and it cost some ability points to unlock it. When it's unlocked, now you can use pickpocket, at the cost of a turn (so, no attacking). Then there is an upgrade called mug. This lets you attack and steal at the same time, and it costs more points.
At no time in between does pickpocket improve. It's a boolean skill. You have it or you don't. When you have enough for mug, you buy it, and pickpocket is upgraded to mug and it's an instant switch.
If you want to improve your magic power, then buy magic + 5%, magic + 10%, magic + 15%, etc...
RPG: Creeping jumps
All of the information from different angled perspectives is very interesting. Although it's also clear that there is a subtle pattern to all of our preferences. Jumping is almost always more interesting, but can be boring during the approach, and usually unrealistic. Creeping isn't really good or bad compared to jumping, but it's sometimes boring, and sometimes necessary - most likely for base-attributes like strength and agility.
It looks like nearly everyone has suggested that combining them is a pretty fun way to go about it. Here are a few of the more obvious ways to do that:
1) Creep base attributes, like strength, and have skills require specific levels of those attributes to use. Such as needing "Agility 15" to use and train with "Ninja" techniques. Or needing "Dexterity 10" to begin using and training with "Lock picking".
2) Creep everything, but enhance the usefulness and special abilities tied to skills at specific heights. At level 10 of "Weapon throwing", the character can effectively use scene objects like scissors and pencils. At level 15, the character can throw nails and unfolded paper clips. At level 20, the character can KO opponents with a well-aimed needle to the temple.
3) Creep everything, but give one-time boolean special enhancements and perks when creeping-stats reach specific heights. Such as +"Night eyes" on "Perception 15". Or +"Door bashing" on "strength 10". The enhancements could be either automatically given, or just become enabled to learn.
A game system could do all (or some of all) of the above. I think my personal favorite would probably be #3 (with the enhancements being automatically given). It has all of the positive elements of both creeping and jumping. If you're careful with the choice of abilities, it can also be made realistic. For example, half-way bashing a door isn't going to help you. You need to be able to fully break through it. And you need decent strength to do that. Realism doesn't fit my "night eyes" example very well, since progression in perception would likely lead to better and better sense of awareness while fighting in the dark. It wouldn't just *click* on.
It looks like nearly everyone has suggested that combining them is a pretty fun way to go about it. Here are a few of the more obvious ways to do that:
1) Creep base attributes, like strength, and have skills require specific levels of those attributes to use. Such as needing "Agility 15" to use and train with "Ninja" techniques. Or needing "Dexterity 10" to begin using and training with "Lock picking".
2) Creep everything, but enhance the usefulness and special abilities tied to skills at specific heights. At level 10 of "Weapon throwing", the character can effectively use scene objects like scissors and pencils. At level 15, the character can throw nails and unfolded paper clips. At level 20, the character can KO opponents with a well-aimed needle to the temple.
3) Creep everything, but give one-time boolean special enhancements and perks when creeping-stats reach specific heights. Such as +"Night eyes" on "Perception 15". Or +"Door bashing" on "strength 10". The enhancements could be either automatically given, or just become enabled to learn.
A game system could do all (or some of all) of the above. I think my personal favorite would probably be #3 (with the enhancements being automatically given). It has all of the positive elements of both creeping and jumping. If you're careful with the choice of abilities, it can also be made realistic. For example, half-way bashing a door isn't going to help you. You need to be able to fully break through it. And you need decent strength to do that. Realism doesn't fit my "night eyes" example very well, since progression in perception would likely lead to better and better sense of awareness while fighting in the dark. It wouldn't just *click* on.
Quote:Original post by KestLet the user choose their own abilities. That's half the fun of playing RPGs.
3) Creep everything, but give one-time boolean special enhancements and perks when creeping-stats reach specific heights. Such as +"Night eyes" on "Perception 15". Or +"Door bashing" on "strength 10". The enhancements could be either automatically given, or just become enabled to learn.
Quote:Original post by Vampyre_DarkQuote:Original post by KestLet the user choose their own abilities. That's half the fun of playing RPGs.
3) Creep everything, but give one-time boolean special enhancements and perks when creeping-stats reach specific heights. Such as +"Night eyes" on "Perception 15". Or +"Door bashing" on "strength 10". The enhancements could be either automatically given, or just become enabled to learn.
Well, just by having quite a lot of creeping attributes, and giving players control over which attributes progress, they'll already have control over which abilities are earned.
Do you mean to have more than one bonus for each jump? That would require more bonuses, or fewer jumps, or a little of both. And many players may want to have two level 15 bonuses, and have to give up a higher-level (20 or 25) bonus to get it - which always sucks.
Or do you mean to have nearly all them become available near the beginning and just let player choose from them at each jump? Similar to Fallout Perks that pop up every three levels? The negative side of that is that it keeps going downhill instead of up. The last bonus you choose will end up being the one you wanted the least. This is why the first few perk choices in Fallout really gave you a boost, then later just added some decent tricks.
Quote:Original post by Kest
Or do you mean to have nearly all them become available near the beginning and just let player choose from them at each jump? Similar to Fallout Perks that pop up every three levels? The negative side of that is that it keeps going downhill instead of up. The last bonus you choose will end up being the one you wanted the least. This is why the first few perk choices in Fallout really gave you a boost, then later just added some decent tricks.
Did we play the same Fallout? Because in the version I played, the perks got better as I went along. Yeah, there were low-level perks I wanted, but there were also ones that I waited till later in the game to get. Better criticals at level 9, bonus rate of fire at 9, action boy at 12, sniper at 18 (if I remember correctly, I didn't get this one because I'd beaten the game before reaching level 18). These also competed with lower level perks that I wanted (toughness, bonus move, strong back).
Quote:Original post by Way WalkerQuote:Original post by Kest
Or do you mean to have nearly all them become available near the beginning and just let player choose from them at each jump? Similar to Fallout Perks that pop up every three levels? The negative side of that is that it keeps going downhill instead of up. The last bonus you choose will end up being the one you wanted the least. This is why the first few perk choices in Fallout really gave you a boost, then later just added some decent tricks.
Did we play the same Fallout? Because in the version I played, the perks got better as I went along. Yeah, there were low-level perks I wanted, but there were also ones that I waited till later in the game to get. Better criticals at level 9, bonus rate of fire at 9, action boy at 12, sniper at 18 (if I remember correctly, I didn't get this one because I'd beaten the game before reaching level 18). These also competed with lower level perks that I wanted (toughness, bonus move, strong back).
Almost all of the perks were presented by level 12. There were only a few higher than that. And progressing 12 through 24 takes a lot longer than 1 through 12. Unless you win the game by level 14-17, the better portion is played without any new stuff coming up.
It's true that advancing three levels is something that enables the selection of a new perk, which is definitely a "jump". But the fact that you have to choose that new perk from a list of old perks dulls the excitement a bit. Especially when you really want to give rewards for reaching high levels - you can't do that by presenting the same rewards for reaching lower levels.
Fallout had 50+ perks with their setup. If abilities are to be granted for specific skill levels instead of general character-levels, there would likely need to be even more of them. I'm not sure there would even be enough to grant 3-5 for each skill throughout the game.
Quote:Original post by KestQuote:Original post by Way WalkerQuote:Original post by Kest
Or do you mean to have nearly all them become available near the beginning and just let player choose from them at each jump? Similar to Fallout Perks that pop up every three levels? The negative side of that is that it keeps going downhill instead of up. The last bonus you choose will end up being the one you wanted the least. This is why the first few perk choices in Fallout really gave you a boost, then later just added some decent tricks.
Did we play the same Fallout? Because in the version I played, the perks got better as I went along. Yeah, there were low-level perks I wanted, but there were also ones that I waited till later in the game to get. Better criticals at level 9, bonus rate of fire at 9, action boy at 12, sniper at 18 (if I remember correctly, I didn't get this one because I'd beaten the game before reaching level 18). These also competed with lower level perks that I wanted (toughness, bonus move, strong back).
Almost all of the perks were presented by level 12. There were only a few higher than that. And progressing 12 through 24 takes a lot longer than 1 through 12. Unless you win the game by level 14-17, the better portion is played without any new stuff coming up.
Well, I did win the game by level 14-17 and, yes, I did take my time doing every sidequest I could find. In any case, I still disagree with your conclusion. Aside from perks that lost their usefulness if you didn't take them early (e.g. lifegiver), many of the lower level perks remained competitive. For example, I noticed a difference adding toughness late in the game. I got the same thrill of a bonus, and it was something I had been "saving up for" (since I couldn't use that perk choice on other enjoyable perks).
Quote:Original post by Way Walker
Well, I did win the game by level 14-17 and, yes, I did take my time doing every sidequest I could find. In any case, I still disagree with your conclusion.
The Sniper perk was among the higher level stuff (I think), so you had to play the game to level 20+ at least once. No disrespect intended, but from what I have observed, you disagree with nearly everything - our own grumpy smurf [smile]
Quote:Aside from perks that lost their usefulness if you didn't take them early (e.g. lifegiver), many of the lower level perks remained competitive. For example, I noticed a difference adding toughness late in the game. I got the same thrill of a bonus, and it was something I had been "saving up for" (since I couldn't use that perk choice on other enjoyable perks).
I agree. It was a great system. But the rewards were given for reaching a third new level, and some of the rewards had a level requirement that happened to force it to be saved for later. This is not the same as granting new rewards on higher levels that continue to outshine those given on lower levels. The fact that earlier rewards were often better than new rewards is the problem. If you level up to 6 and choose a perk, then level up to 9 (which was far harder than leveling up from 3 to 6) and choose another perk that was there when you reached level 6, you are indeed going down-hill. I mean, unless you purposely chose the lesser needed bonus the first time.
Quote:Original post by KestQuote:Original post by Way Walker
Well, I did win the game by level 14-17 and, yes, I did take my time doing every sidequest I could find. In any case, I still disagree with your conclusion.
The Sniper perk was among the higher level stuff (I think), so you had to play the game to level 20+ at least once. No disrespect intended, but from what I have observed, you disagree with nearly everything - our own grumpy smurf [smile]
No disrespect taken. I just hope I haven't been overly antagonistic. I also hope that it's understood that if I didn't care about your response, I wouldn't have replied.
Quote:Quote:Aside from perks that lost their usefulness if you didn't take them early (e.g. lifegiver), many of the lower level perks remained competitive. For example, I noticed a difference adding toughness late in the game. I got the same thrill of a bonus, and it was something I had been "saving up for" (since I couldn't use that perk choice on other enjoyable perks).
I agree. It was a great system. But the rewards were given for reaching a third new level, and some of the rewards had a level requirement that happened to force it to be saved for later. This is not the same as granting new rewards on higher levels that continue to outshine those given on lower levels. The fact that earlier rewards were often better than new rewards is the problem. If you level up to 6 and choose a perk, then level up to 9 (which was far harder than leveling up from 3 to 6) and choose another perk that was there when you reached level 6, you are indeed going down-hill. I mean, unless you purposely chose the lesser needed bonus the first time.
I think I see what you're saying now. I guess I didn't mind the old perks outshining the new because the new were still, for my style, very competitive. In other words, when I did choose an old perk, there was usually a new perk that was a very close second and it usually took me a bit to decide which way to go.
Would you say that, ideally, they wouldn't even offer the older perks because the newer should always be better?
What if all perks were available from the start? They'd probably have to remove or tone down some, like sniper/slayer, for balance, but, other than that, would you mind it as much? My intention in making them all available would be to remove the expectation that newer perks would be necessarily better than older ones.
Back in what I was originally replying to, you complained that it was always going downhill. This sounds like the common complaint that the amount of experience to reach the next level goes up exponentially but each level only gives a linear increase in power. Should perks be used to provide something like exponential increases in power?
Quote:Original post by Way Walker
No disrespect taken. I just hope I haven't been overly antagonistic. I also hope that it's understood that if I didn't care about your response, I wouldn't have replied.
I didn't mean you were being unfriendly. Just that you seem rarely poised to give a thumbs up. A thumbs up from Way Walker is a prize to behold!
Quote:Would you say that, ideally, they wouldn't even offer the older perks because the newer should always be better?
Well, my original thought was to only have 1 single bonus, per 1 single skill/stat, per each progression jump. So there would never be old perks, except those that you already have.
The first thought is probably that this system would remove the flexibility of character progression. Keep in mind that I'm not actually referring to "perks", but just simple progression bonuses. I could still have something that is similar to Fallout's perk system on top of it. So instead of imagining Fallout with a different type of perk system, imagine Fallout with the same perk system, and a bonus system built on top of skill progression as well. The bonuses don't need to be as useful as perks, but useful enough to command a sense of accomplishment. A noticeable improvement.
Quote:What if all perks were available from the start? They'd probably have to remove or tone down some, like sniper/slayer, for balance, but, other than that, would you mind it as much? My intention in making them all available would be to remove the expectation that newer perks would be necessarily better than older ones.
The only problem I have with all of them being available is that players will always want the best perk first, and the worst perk last. Meaning as time goes on, being granted a perk will become less and less satisfying. Do you know of any way to counter this problem?
Quote:Back in what I was originally replying to, you complained that it was always going downhill. This sounds like the common complaint that the amount of experience to reach the next level goes up exponentially but each level only gives a linear increase in power. Should perks be used to provide something like exponential increases in power?
It wasn't really related to the difference in difficulty to climb between higher levels. Just that if it's more difficult to climb from 6 to 9 than 3 to 6, you should at least get an equal reward. It doesn't need to be better, just not worse. But if both are present during each reward situation, almost all players will choose the best one first, forcing the lesser for later. Even if the bonuses are as equal as you can balance them to be, players will still often prefer one to the other, if not just to suit their character type, making that choice better. The only way I know to 'fix' the problem is to remove the choice. I'm definitely open to other ideas.
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement