Quote:Original post by Prozak

Quote:Original post by Steadtler
That gameplay video is kinda disappointing. Same old 1995 gameplay. I know thats what a lot of people want, so I cant blame Blizzard, but they have become so safe and boring. Same small scale, tactical-level micromanagement click-frenzy.

And whats with those air units? They look like hovering turrets shooting at each others. Dogfighting anyone? Someone is shooting at you, try moving a bit?

I'll pass, and stay on SupCom.

It's a new GameDesign concept called Fun. Look it up.

Yeah, the shitty small view is fun. Boring action is fun. Dumb ai targeting is fun. (look at those tanks killing each other!). Scrolling the mad like a madman is fun...

Come on. Starcraft was fun, but had its drawback. I just wish they'll would have innovated a bit to cover those faults, especially regarding the UI and AI. Well, like the guy said, its not final, but I dont see anything impressive in there.

Quote:Original post by Steadtler

Quote:Original post by Prozak

Quote:Original post by Steadtler
That gameplay video is kinda disappointing. Same old 1995 gameplay. I know thats what a lot of people want, so I cant blame Blizzard, but they have become so safe and boring. Same small scale, tactical-level micromanagement click-frenzy.

And whats with those air units? They look like hovering turrets shooting at each others. Dogfighting anyone? Someone is shooting at you, try moving a bit?

I'll pass, and stay on SupCom.

It's a new GameDesign concept called Fun. Look it up.

Yeah, the shitty small view is fun. Boring action is fun. Dumb ai targeting is fun. (look at those tanks killing each other!). Scrolling the mad like a madman is fun...

Come on. Starcraft was fun, but had its drawback. I just wish they'll would have innovated a bit to cover those faults, especially regarding the UI and AI. Well, like the guy said, its not final, but I dont see anything impressive in there.

OK, so you don't like RTS games that require quick thinking... so what? Most people prefer them over relaxed RTS like SupCom, and considering that SC1 was of the action-packed variety, why would they make SC2 slow?

I think Blizzard has done a lot of innovating in the RTS genre. For example, take a look at War3 compared to Starcraft. Now everyone is quick to point out heroes, but there were some really important UI features they added over the course of the game - especially in the Frozen Throne - such as queuing buildings, mini-map pinging, intelligent unit grouping, intelligent spell casting (not talking about auto-cast here; think of telling 12 ghosts in SC to lockdown compared to telling 12 priests to dispel an area in war3. In SC, all 12 ghosts will lockdown the target, a huge waste of energy. In War3, only one priest dispels the area, which is much more efficient and really what you'd expect to happen), etc. I'm not saying that Blizzard was the first to bring these to the genre (I'm really not sure) but they're progressive.

As far as scrolling like a madman is concerned... I can't say I've ever noticed that to be a problem. Maybe it's just preference. I like to scroll around a map, it makes me feel like the map is bigger than it is I guess. As long as you can still have one battle between multiple players in one screen (which you can in war3 and starcraft), I don't see the problem. I did download the demo and play a bit of Supreme Commander.. while it's possible the zoom out feature is important for that game specifically, I don't think it's a necessity for all RTS games.

And the AI... the AI in Starcraft wasn't that great. But that was 1998. War3, while not amazing, had a very powerful AI - a clear improvement. I see no reason why Blizzard won't continue to evolve their RTS AI in Starcraft 2. We probably haven't seen the best of it yet in that one pre-alpha demo they released.

I believe it was at the Q&A panel in Korea that Blizzard talked about how they found most new features in the genre to be superfluous and that such features either got in the way of or were ignored by pro gamers. Competitive gaming seems to have had a big impact on the game's development, which isn't surprising considering the lasting success of Starcraft is basically due to e-sports.

Quote:Original post by Steadtler
Yeah, the shitty small view is fun. Boring action is fun. Dumb ai targeting is fun. (look at those tanks killing each other!). Scrolling the mad like a madman is fun...

Come on. Starcraft was fun, but had its drawback. I just wish they'll would have innovated a bit to cover those faults, especially regarding the UI and AI. Well, like the guy said, its not final, but I dont see anything impressive in there.

From the previews I've read of Starcraft 2, Blizzard's philosophy has been "Don't fix what isn't broken." Considering the original Starcraft is considered one of the best games of all time, probably not much was broken.

It is not just a graphics update. Already just from the Protoss unit demo (which we don't even see all Protoss units), there are a lot of new mechanics, like the Immortal's shield and warping to any energy field. I also read in the Gamespot preview that SC2 will have a "powerful zoom feature" so you might not be so fixed in the close view. Also, they removed the unit selection limit.

As for the AI... I think they kept the friendly fire there on purpose. It is a strategic weakness of the Terrans. I do see where you are coming from on the flyers standing still (although Protoss carriers have ships flying everywhere), but perhaps Blizzard would rather you move the ships yourself rather than AI do it. From other RTSs I've played, aircraft fights with circling and dogfighting stuff works best when you can select the planes from an airfield (where they eventually land), and it is extremely annoying to try to select them in the air because they never stand still. Starcraft's flying is more akin to ocean ship battles but in the air.

Quote:Yeah, the shitty small view is fun. Boring action is fun. Dumb ai targeting is fun. (look at those tanks killing each other!). Scrolling the mad like a madman is fun...

Come on. Starcraft was fun, but had its drawback. I just wish they'll would have innovated a bit to cover those faults, especially regarding the UI and AI. Well, like the guy said, its not final, but I dont see anything impressive in there.

That's a lot of nice arguments but... Did you see the Protoss Mothership? So cool! Can't wait for this game. :)

Good points, Scint, but you're thinking old gen :) Selecting fast moving flying units is not a chore with clever UI and controls.

I didnt play Frozen Throne. I think thats always been something with Blizzard, their games only realize their potential when the expansion comes out. It seems FT fixes many of the original game annoyances.

My grip is, when I play Starcraft or W3, I feel that the best (casual) players dont win because they played a better strategy, they win because they are more efficient better at using the dubious controls and UI. They think less, click faster.

Oh well, at least I hope the 128 unit cap show in the video is not universal.

Quote:Original post by Steadtler
Good points, Scint, but you're thinking old gen :) Selecting fast moving flying units is not a chore with clever UI and controls.

I didnt play Frozen Throne. I think thats always been something with Blizzard, their games only realize their potential when the expansion comes out. It seems FT fixes many of the original game annoyances.

My grip is, when I play Starcraft or W3, I feel that the best (casual) players dont win because they played a better strategy, they win because they are more efficient better at using the dubious controls and UI. They think less, click faster.

Oh well, at least I hope the 128 unit cap show in the video is not universal.

You know, you don't really have to play that quickly in order to be a great player. 150 actions per second is plenty to be considered an excellent player. Considering that includes both mouse clicks and key presses, that isn't very fast for your hands to have to move.

Perhaps the problem isn't that your opponents aren't thinking, it's that they are thinking faster than you?

I'll go ahead and add that you don't really need to scroll much in Starcraft. If you want to jump to some units, you double-tap their hotkey.

Quote:Original post by Steadtler
My grip is, when I play Starcraft or W3, I feel that the best (casual) players dont win because they played a better strategy, they win because they are more efficient better at using the dubious controls and UI. They think less, click faster.

Gonna let you in on something:

The default hotkeys for Warcraft 3 are all over the place, somewhat based on letter of the skill. Everyone remembers the stuff like BF for build-farm, but others are less intuitive... t for stormbolt, o for possession? Plus, they are all over the keyboard.

But you can redefine hotkeys in War3! The buttons in War3 are in a 4x3 grid. If you arrange your hotkeys like this...

QWER
ASDF
ZXCV

Then you don't have to memorize letters for skills. The interface and keyboard are visually in sync. A unit's skills will always be Z, X, C, and V. If you rearrange your hotkeys like this, your game will improve 300%.

Quote:Original post by Daniel Miller
You know, you don't really have to play that quickly in order to be a great player. 150 actions per second is plenty to be considered an excellent player. Considering that includes both mouse clicks and key presses, that isn't very fast for your hands to have to move.

I'm going to have to assume that was a mistake. The game doesn't even run 150 frames per second on most computers.

Quote:Original post by Scint

Quote:Original post by Steadtler
My grip is, when I play Starcraft or W3, I feel that the best (casual) players dont win because they played a better strategy, they win because they are more efficient better at using the dubious controls and UI. They think less, click faster.

Gonna let you in on something:

The default hotkeys for Warcraft 3 are all over the place, somewhat based on letter of the skill. Everyone remembers the stuff like BF for build-farm, but others are less intuitive... t for stormbolt, o for possession? Plus, they are all over the keyboard.

But you can redefine hotkeys in War3! The buttons in War3 are in a 4x3 grid. If you arrange your hotkeys like this...

QWER
ASDF
ZXCV

Then you don't have to memorize letters for skills. The interface and keyboard are visually in sync. A unit's skills will always be Z, X, C, and V. If you rearrange your hotkeys like this, your game will improve 300%.

Thats a nice trick, but to me, having to quickly use several different controls that are far from the user's center of attention, thats bad design. It takes you away from the strategy and action, and onto the mechanics.

Daniel, when did I talk about opponents? Thats true for me too. When I beat an opponent that had a better strategy just because I knew all the hotkeys better, its not really satisfying.