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FPS and jumping

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I started this thread to see your opinion on jumping in FPS games. I have to say I am a good FPS player. I have played almost all dooms (except 3), all quakes, unreal tournaments and other. However, I always hated players who overjumped - that is spend 90% of the game time in midair. I rarely jump without reason and usually dodge attacks on the ground. I find it more relaxing (since I dont have to press spacebar over and over and over and over ...), I can plan my actions better (find escape routes, tactical positions etc) and I can see the other players better (since that is a problem while jumping). What's your opinion ?

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Jumpig is just a valid strategy as hiding and walking low. A lot of people hate jumpers, because they actually have to do some working. You don't play a FPS to relax, go find yourself a RTS instead.
I like to jump, when I'm close atleast. I can jump over people, and quicly turn around, while they try to figure out where I went. I also usually start pressing space a lot when I'm being fired at, this way it makes it that one bit harder for people to hit me.
But no, then I'm a bunnyjumper or something like that.
They don't take int oconsideration that while I'm jumping(At least on almost every game) the aiming becose much worse, in the end, its a valid strategy.
I have strategies against it, learn to aim, and if you see someone jump close to you, try to start fire right behind you, they usually land there.
When people fall down, you know exactly where they will land, its hard to evade fire mid-air, use that.

Theres always something in a FPS game that some will hate, while others take use of and learn to use well, it can't be avoided. Trying to design a game oterwise, will not make it better. You'd have to make a game with only ONE weapon, no jumping, no walking low, no aiming. Hell, while youre at it, take away all forms of health and armour refilling.
NOW you might not get complainers... oh...wait.... can't that other guy aim BETTER THAN ME? OMG?

Those that hate something(Like bunnyjumping, certain weapons) do that just because they can't use it themselves.
Those wh osay everyone better is a cheater, is jut because they themselve is'nt as good.

So, how do you guys want to work around this?

Glitching on the other hand is something that it's allowed to complain about(I hate those FPS games where people hide inside walls)

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People also whine about players bunnyhopping on Counterstrike: Source. These people get on my man-tits mainly because they don't like being beaten.

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No, the reason I hate hoppers is not because I get beaten (and I do ... I'm not a guru, nor an averege player; somewhere in between) but because it spoils the game.

Imagine a hardcore battle, your team (or you alone) facing three enemies, running, hiding behind obstacles, dodging rockets, bullets and whatever you like. Pretty cool, huh ?
Now the same scene with everybody jumping around like a bunch of retards, thinking that they can't get hit if they jump. Spoils the image right? Makes the scene look like all the players are on crack.

Remember DOOM? You couldn't really jump in doom (you could fall however) even if it could have been implemented by the developers. People still deathmatched back then, didn't they?

I really loved the way bunny hopping was taken out of counter strike (version 1.4 i think). Didn't that give something special to the game? Didn't that make it more tactical and less jump/shoot/jump/die?

What i'm saying is that jumping is good if it has a point (shortcuting some stairs, rocket jumping to inaccesible/secret areas, dodging a grenade etc). I can shoot a hopper the same way I shoot any player. It just looks awful.

PS: BTW, how many of you hoppers :) also jump like that in singleplayer?

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You also have to consider that in some games, Unreal Tournament series is the ideal example, the jumping is one of the most important strategies to use.
To elaborate, in Unreal Tournament there's the double-jump, dodge, dodge-jump and wall-jump. All of these are very important to use since the not only lets you access some areas faster (or at all, even) but can also be used to make one very hard to hit.
I think it has all to do which game it is and in which setting. Unreal Tournament is a futuristic game where they've made it fit just right. Counter Strike on the other hand is one example where jumping doesn't fit in and is also discouraged (except for the bunnyjumping, jumping like a rabbit on crack when shooting seldom works).
Do I jump in singleplayer FPS ? Depends. Jumping do dodge enemy fire isn't as effective against bots as it is against humans then it's more to avoid slow moving projectiles and explosions. Unreal Tournament, definitely. RTC Wolfenstein, no.
Removing jumping from FPS games would be weird. Kinda like removing jumping from Super Mario.

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I think removing unrealistic jumps would make games visually better but less fun to play. There are very few cases where I'd make such exchange.


[Edited: Removed stupid sarcasm]

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A lot of it probably dates back to the Quake 1 DM days, people quickly learnt to aim rockets at the ground so even if you miss people you get them with splash damage, jumping was a way to mitigate that somewhat, if you did jump from splash damage it also sent you flying up in the air giving you chance to fire down on your opponent but making it hard for them to hit you above them.

I still jump a lot out of habit, in the days of headshots in just about every FPS game it helps if your head is moving about on all 3 axis, and not just one/two, to make you a much harder kill.

Different games do different things, look at Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, no jumping at all to maintain realism (trust me, you wont jump at all armed to the hilt with heavy kit in a real war), compared to a fast action shooter like the UT games and suddenly it doesn't matter if you're jumping about, it's part the game - futuristic super-fit, super-human athlete-warriors running round with guns almost.

If you take it further and look at games like Crackdown, you'll see that they realised suitable jumping is something that's actually very important to gameplay and made it a central part of the game.

The answer on whether or not to remove or dampen the effect of jumping therefore depends entirely on the game. Futuristic shooter? I'd stick some slightly over the top jumping in personally, realistic simulation? I'd do as GRAW and have no, or very very low jumping. There's no magic bullet, or no "correct" way to do jumping.

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I think one of the most important strategies of game design is noticing the sharp hooks that come along with potential features you want to add to your project. It's important because it's so easy to overlook them. I think it can be summed up in one simple sentence: If a feature presents a decent advantage that can be gained by doing something tedious, then don't add it. A crude example is looting crappy items from dead bodies. Something that you can do to become rich, but something that no one wants to do.

FPS jumping is not something I personally have a problem with. But I can easily imagine a FPS being designed in such a way that jumping isn't necessary - isn't even desired as a strategic maneuver. I've played several very good shooters that don't even have a jump button.

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I like games with a stamina bar where it takes stamina to jump. That makes it more of a strategy. Also slower paced FPS games don't have as much jumping. Another way, and one of the best ways, I know of is to make aiming a probability with a cone of fire. When you jump, just spike the cone of fire really high. You might dodge a bullet but letting the cone of fire lower might be a huge disadvantage overall.

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I agree with Xest, it's entirely dependent on the game.

I personally find jumping fun in a lot of games, where it can get me extra speed (Half-Life 2 for example), or allow me to make moves that make me feel empowered. An example of the latter could be jump-maps in Counter-Strike, where the entire object of the game is to jump.

You can also look at platformers, and what an important role jumping plays in those games. It's really entirely dependent on the game. What can detract from the enjoyment is a game where jumping around like a madman breaks immersion, or gives an unreasonable advantage to those who do it, when it's not a part of the game's intended gameplay.

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I don't mind jumpers, I'm not one myself but I try to home my skills to take them out specifically. But I only agree when the atmosphere of the game matters. In CS or Americas Army, no. I think jumping should only be useful for getting over obstacles, and jumping in the open wouldn't really get you out of the sniper's target. AA does it well as your accuracy is absolutely horrible if you start jumping. And if I aim at your head, and you jump, part of your body is still in my crosshair.

UT on the other hand, I have to agree, they MADE jumping part of the game when they added dodging. Except for the first one, I just played single player for the sequels as I can't stand bunnies. I don't try and change them.

Now as far as game design goes, I actually have a couple in mind that incorporate both styles into one. it's medieval. A simple warrior or heavy hitter cannot jump that well. And when they do, they incur various penalties for doing so. Where as the ninja is allowed to dodge and jump like... well, a ninja. The two styles will have it's adv's and disadv's, but each will have to cope with them.

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Quote:
Original post by wildex999
Jumpig is just a valid strategy as hiding and walking low. A lot of people hate jumpers, because they actually have to do some working. You don't play a FPS to relax, go find yourself a RTS instead.
I like to jump, when I'm close atleast. I can jump over people, and quicly turn around, while they try to figure out where I went. I also usually start pressing space a lot when I'm being fired at, this way it makes it that one bit harder for people to hit me.
But no, then I'm a bunnyjumper or something like that.
They don't take int oconsideration that while I'm jumping(At least on almost every game) the aiming becose much worse, in the end, its a valid strategy.
I have strategies against it, learn to aim, and if you see someone jump close to you, try to start fire right behind you, they usually land there.
When people fall down, you know exactly where they will land, its hard to evade fire mid-air, use that.

Theres always something in a FPS game that some will hate, while others take use of and learn to use well, it can't be avoided. Trying to design a game oterwise, will not make it better. You'd have to make a game with only ONE weapon, no jumping, no walking low, no aiming. Hell, while youre at it, take away all forms of health and armour refilling.
NOW you might not get complainers... oh...wait.... can't that other guy aim BETTER THAN ME? OMG?

Those that hate something(Like bunnyjumping, certain weapons) do that just because they can't use it themselves.
Those wh osay everyone better is a cheater, is jut because they themselve is'nt as good.

So, how do you guys want to work around this?

Glitching on the other hand is something that it's allowed to complain about(I hate those FPS games where people hide inside walls)


I can't disagree more. There are many ways to balance an FPS like any other game.

I can understand the frustration from not being a jumper and I've only recently started doing it because there was a definite advantage to doing so (BF2142). Now I don't know the system behind every FPS but I heard (take this with a grain of salt as I don't have a source for it) that the way the player's client VS server coordinates are may be a little buggy when it comes to jumping in BF making it very difficult to shoot someone who's jumping.

If you really wanted to avoid bunny hopping in your game because you found it ruined the immersion you could always add a stamina system where players could only sprint/jump a specific amount of times before they got tired and weren't allowed to do so.

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Because it looks cool? I don't know man I don't work for Dice hehehe

It doesn't _look_ buggy since it's smooth and everything but you can shoot straight on someone who's in midair and he might not even get hit. I have survived situation that even jumping to screw up their aim wouldn't have helped and it did (think of a machine gun with an endless clip that just needs to fire in your direction to massacre you).

Now I know my personal experience doesn't mean squat but I'm not basing my comment on what happened to me and instead on what I heard from the community (I don't know who/what is the real source so that's why I said to take it with a grain of salt even though I, personally, think it's plausible through my experience).

edit: I'm not sure how HL2 handled jumping since I don't own it, I've only played once or twice. This also means I haven't played it online.

Even though I disagree on the balancing of an FPS it will always be true that a player will be better skilled than you and that can only be remedied through practice. There will always be weapons that are better than others so it's up to you to practice with the one you think is best. However weapons should have their disadvantages to equal them out. A bad example of this is the AWP in CS. A weapon of that size and power would need to be deployed and would seriously encumber anyone running with it on their back.

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Quote:
Original post by Rimio
Imagine a hardcore battle, your team (or you alone) facing three enemies, running, hiding behind obstacles, dodging rockets, bullets and whatever you like. Pretty cool, huh ?
Now the same scene with everybody jumping around like a bunch of retards, thinking that they can't get hit if they jump. Spoils the image right? Makes the scene look like all the players are on crack.


Spoils the image?

But going from 0 to 20+MPH in a millisecond then near instantly spinning 180 to change direction mid run to aim and fire on some guy behind you...humans CAN'T do that, but its the constant player jumping that bugs you?

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Half-Life 2 had a stamina system of sorts, but jumping didn't take any stamina. Jumping would give you the speed of the sprint, without draining the stamina.

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I half hate jump nutsos, half enjoy them greatly. Assuming the game is designed well (q1, q3a, tribes series), the jump can be used to avoid most missile damage while having the downside of making your movements predictable and generally decreasing your own accuracy. If you're a jump nut in those games I'll just wait until you're in midair and fire where you're going to land [grin]

If the game (or jumping at least) is not designed well (UT, HL derivatives, q2 to a degree) the jump is too quick to fire as a reaction or you can change your motion in the air so that your movements aren't predictable. You get all of the evasion benefit for no real detriment.

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Similar situation caused me to stop playing Gunz:The Duel. I used to kill people with assault rifles. But from lvl 10, I was actively flamed by everyone, because I didn't do what "pros" do, they call it butterfly or something, but it is changing weapon to sword, jump, swing, change to shotgun, shoot, change to sword, jump... whole game this way. I got comments like "noob machinegunner" "noob sprayer" "butterfly plz" and kicked, just because I was running around sniping them with assault rifle instead of running around like monkey and shooting randomly.

and very good strategy against jumpers... just approximate where they will land and send a rocket there, don't try to hit them in air

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Honestly i think jumping should be reserved for JUMPING ON/OFF THINGS. Honestly, i think quake3 is fun, but the whole perfect-aim even when flying through the air and getting your teeth cleaned is a little bit too "gamey", and not enough duel. It's like a mouse-contest, not a combat scenario. Counterstrike-source is good, as your aim becomes poorer as you run/jump/walk/get shot. The only crummy thing in certain levels is pump-jumping, where people jump and have their head pop over the wall (which fires shells somehow)...as you try to rush them. Sure u can just shoot them in the head if they keep popping up in the same spot, but people don't....once they got a few cheap shots in on you, they can just pop out and blast you.

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I think stamina is the best way to prevent jumping, like in BF2. If you jump, your accuracy goes down and you run out of stamina and um, can't run away.

Halo 2 did jumping rather well, I think you slowed down in the air and had little airborne control. If you jumped, that just made you a slower target, but you had to jump to avoid grenades sometimes... You couldn't really bunny-hop effectively in that game.

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If this is a conversation about game design, then I'd say that Jumping could be removed, but only if it is also replaced with some kind of dashing action. For a FPS, this probably wouldn't make absolute sense in terms of animation, but is an important tactic. Someone mentioned before that jumping was a way to get away from rocket damage. This happens because jumping increases your overall speed (not on the floor's X or Y axis, but in the air's Z axis) and got you away from the center of the explosion faster. Losing the ability to jump would give too much power to any kind of splash damage effect, and remove ability from the defender, laying only accuracy on the attacker as the gameplay factor. Because these are multiplayer games, and we want each player to have a chance to really play, the defender needs a way to get away from that attack, and some kind of dash would assist. Of course, we don't want them just dashing all over the place, so the dash would need some kind of slow down toward the end of it, so that it's no faster than normal running, but still a better way to get away from an explosion than plain running.

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If you want to see Jumping Done Right™ in an action game, look at Unreal Tournament 2004. Watch a demo of a guru battle and you'll see tons of jumping, but if you pay attention you'll notice that nobody is bunny hopping around - every jump has a purpose, and jumping at the wrong time is deadly. No stamina needed.

For semi-psuedo-realistic games, a stamina bar is better than the "jump-stumble" that made it in Counter Strike, but honestly who cares? Just make the cone-of-fire large while jumping (and triply large if firing fully auto while in the air) and it shouldn't be a problem.

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This topic is 3854 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

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