Chaos Game Engine
Author
I never flamed, I stated a warning.
I can only say this, do YOUR homework as I primarily asked. What you find may shock you.
I wish I could say more, for now I will have to look like a disgruntled customer. The future will tell if I am more than meets the eye.
Thanks for giving this subject the attention it deserves.
@Jerky:
See how troypowell and those banned guys joined at the same day. They also joined with the same IP, and there was something else linking them together. Why would
anyone professional create multiple GDnet accounts just to argue with us 'flamers'? If the engine is a good professional made engine then ok, I understand he would join to defend himself, but I didn't get sold by the engine, looked to unprofessional with everything CTar pointed out.
Something is just not right about that engine.
/MindWipe
See how troypowell and those banned guys joined at the same day. They also joined with the same IP, and there was something else linking them together. Why would
anyone professional create multiple GDnet accounts just to argue with us 'flamers'? If the engine is a good professional made engine then ok, I understand he would join to defend himself, but I didn't get sold by the engine, looked to unprofessional with everything CTar pointed out.
Something is just not right about that engine.
/MindWipe
I actually did a little bit of searching and now I'm more confused than ever. Apparently this Colton Burgess is a pretty bad guy that everyone hates, and his MMO projects have either all been scams or run very unprofessional/unethically. However I'm not sure how this Troy character and his company fit into this, whether or not it's just another front or a separate legitimate company that bought the software.
One thing is for sure, there are no straight answers anywhere. And that makes it hard for a reasonably-minded company to consider this product.
One thing is for sure, there are no straight answers anywhere. And that makes it hard for a reasonably-minded company to consider this product.
The 'troypowell' account name made 3 negative posts in regards to Dark and Light (http://www.darkandlight.com/) on the D&L forum around the same time that staff apparently involved with Mourning performed similar unprofessional activies. Association between one troypowell account and another are completely circumstantial are used to further a vendetta against Colton Burgess/Burgress that should not have continued as far as it has.
The 'tunabun' account is a misguided vigilante, with awareness of many factors in regards to the Mourning scandal but unable to properly ascertain truth due to a minimal understanding of supposed facts and their validity. This is not a personal attack as this same issue is highlighted to a degree in a number of posts made by otherwise intelligent individuals.
tunabun: "I would like to make sure everyone here is fully aware that the 'Chaos Game Engine' and anything associated with its company, the owners, and all software are a scam."
This states that anyone associated with this group is guilty of a scam, either past, present or future commited by any related body or individual. This is obviously an incredulous statement to make. I would like to point out, as it has been done so already but been sorely overlooked, that Quad Software LTD and other development professionals created a viable solution to MMORPG development by creating an Engine for professional use, not a game, and decidedly not Mourning or its flaws.
Many people are unable to relate between this Engine, these past games and practices commited by an unrelated party/parties, and this company that for all intense and purposes is unrelated apart from by a purchase of ownership rights to another companies assets.
The progression of this libel nonsense serves only to limit Developer choice and in doing so limit future positive publicity for strong emerging software houses like Quad Software. As well as ignorantly damage the potential profits of as yet unrelated individuals at Chaos Software Group. Frankly, poor customer service, as the so called scam amounts to, is far from this endevour to provide a tailored MMO game solution to a professional market where consumers take themselves and their money a lot more seriously, hopefully more seriously than idle gossip and requests to trust negative information based on agressive posting alone.
Until such a time that a responsible user can post factual information with the intention of furthering game development opportunities this should be the end of this. If a group wishes to research this engine for their own uses, they can find this topic and weigh these doubts against any facts they aquire and make the right decision for themselves. That should be as much as anyone could ask for. The unwieldly galloping of a horse flogged to death on mmorpg.com through GameDev territory fails to constitute itself into being in the best interests of game developers.
disclaimer: I am unrelated to any involved parties and represent an unbias and considered opinion.
The 'tunabun' account is a misguided vigilante, with awareness of many factors in regards to the Mourning scandal but unable to properly ascertain truth due to a minimal understanding of supposed facts and their validity. This is not a personal attack as this same issue is highlighted to a degree in a number of posts made by otherwise intelligent individuals.
tunabun: "I would like to make sure everyone here is fully aware that the 'Chaos Game Engine' and anything associated with its company, the owners, and all software are a scam."
This states that anyone associated with this group is guilty of a scam, either past, present or future commited by any related body or individual. This is obviously an incredulous statement to make. I would like to point out, as it has been done so already but been sorely overlooked, that Quad Software LTD and other development professionals created a viable solution to MMORPG development by creating an Engine for professional use, not a game, and decidedly not Mourning or its flaws.
Many people are unable to relate between this Engine, these past games and practices commited by an unrelated party/parties, and this company that for all intense and purposes is unrelated apart from by a purchase of ownership rights to another companies assets.
The progression of this libel nonsense serves only to limit Developer choice and in doing so limit future positive publicity for strong emerging software houses like Quad Software. As well as ignorantly damage the potential profits of as yet unrelated individuals at Chaos Software Group. Frankly, poor customer service, as the so called scam amounts to, is far from this endevour to provide a tailored MMO game solution to a professional market where consumers take themselves and their money a lot more seriously, hopefully more seriously than idle gossip and requests to trust negative information based on agressive posting alone.
Until such a time that a responsible user can post factual information with the intention of furthering game development opportunities this should be the end of this. If a group wishes to research this engine for their own uses, they can find this topic and weigh these doubts against any facts they aquire and make the right decision for themselves. That should be as much as anyone could ask for. The unwieldly galloping of a horse flogged to death on mmorpg.com through GameDev territory fails to constitute itself into being in the best interests of game developers.
disclaimer: I am unrelated to any involved parties and represent an unbias and considered opinion.
The rash of brand new, verbose posters in this thread has attracted my attention.
I propose a Lounge Thunderdome.
I propose a Lounge Thunderdome.
Quote:Original post by MindWipe
@Jerky:
See how troypowell and those banned guys joined at the same day. They also joined with the same IP, and there was something else linking them together. Why would
anyone professional create multiple GDnet accounts just to argue with us 'flamers'? If the engine is a good professional made engine then ok, I understand he would join to defend himself, but I didn't get sold by the engine, looked to unprofessional with everything CTar pointed out.
Something is just not right about that engine.
/MindWipe
Actually, I didn't see that about the IP addresses. That is a good point. Thanks for pointing it out. The only response I have to that would be: bad decision making. It's apparent to him (troy) that his reputation could be damaged here and he wanted to try and help it, and made a bad decision (to make multiple accounts and work it from different angles). For all we know, he could be the "Mark Rein" for his company, who is known for making comments that don't necessarily line up with what is actually happening behind the scenes. This still doesn't say much about the actual product (technology behind the scenes), which should be the point of the whole discussion.
Now, to be clear, my point for posting was that this thread seemed to be a "guilty before proven innocent" type thing. I hate that type of unfairness, so I felt it was time to chime in.
You still seem to have overlooked my main point: Everyone shopping for this product still has the opportunity to see for themselves. Like I said, the only one here who has actually seen it (or a old version of it) is Corman. He says it looked good 3-4 years ago. Now, tunabum is hinting at something but it seems he can't disclose full details. I would trust Corman over tunabum, but that decision is up to each individual. Choose for yourself. Troy says for people who are interested to make their own inquiries. That is completely fair. A "scam," to use the word used in this thread, would be seen through upon a proper inquiry. Most true inquiries would envolve and NDA being signed and even allowing prospective customers to see "under the hood," as it were. This would be someone's chance to tell whether or not it was a true scam. Now, given the price point mentioned, this seems to be well within the realm of possiblity. If you want to see a scam, take a look at this: http://www.dayark.com/caligari.html
I would call that a borderline scam. I am still not seeing a scam in this. A scam would say, pay up front, and only then will I release to you our code and tools. Nowhere can I see that in this case. As I said, lets see the scam. I want to see facts, not accusations.
Now, as far as my 'flamers' comment goes, MindWipe, you were not grouped in there. I'm sorry you thought I was referring to you. I said "almost" everyone was flaming, only because that was the tone of the thread. I didn't feel like addressing every single post and saying whether or not they were flaming in my own opinion. I made the comment that way to make sure everyone, flaming or not, would take a second thought about their facts and motivations for posting. Its easy to kick someone while they are down, especially on the internet.
Over on the Multiverse forums, a kid by the name of James Allsop (someone who a number of veterans here should remember) joined the forum, only to be attacked in this same way. I defended him then, because that is the proper thing to do. Later on, I found out from actual facts, that his reputation was deserved, but that did not make me regret having defended him. "Warning" and "attacking" are two different things. What I have seen in this thread has contained both, and I am addressing the "attacking." The "warning" is completely fine, but should contain information pointing people to facts. I did my research on James Allsop to find out that he indeed did have a deserved bad reputation. That aside, people should have the opportunity to prove themselves based on their own actions. When it came to James, I took my beef with him to a private aren, email.
Now, to tunabum, you may very well be right, but you never posted any facts. You hint at things, but that is not good enough. For people who did do their research, they see your name on another site flaming the Chaos Engine there as well. There is a "supposed" hijacking of your account with some very childish remarks there, but it is still clear to anyone reading: You have some sort of vendetta with them. If you were to disclose more information, you may be able to receive the credibility you are seeking. Until then, we can only go on the facts that we have received. Vagueness is not going to help anyone here.
At this point, even my reputation has been tarnished from this thread. I have been voted lower because of my own comments. Does that make me recoil and wish I had not said them? No. Everyone deserves a fair trial. Judge me all you want, I am only seeking the true facts of the matter and trying to help everyone here be fair. If you have proof that this is actually a scam, lets see it. I am still only seeing nothing but hot air. CTar brings up some valid points, but they are still just opinions; the facts are missing. The facts are still missing. Who cares if the website is crappy? Its obvious that its a small company. That doesn't change the technology at all, which is what we are talking about here.
[Edited by - Jerky on June 8, 2007 3:21:59 PM]
Quote:Original post by tunabun
The future will tell if I am more than meets the eye.
Holy crap, are you a Transformer?
Seriously, you're not helping your cause any by trying to remain all incognito and mysterious; you just make yourself sound like a pissed off teenager with too much free time and not enough facts to back your argument. Hell, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this entire thing is just an (utterly misguided) marketing scheme to spread awareness about your engine [1].
Quote:Original post by tunabun
I can only say this, do YOUR homework as I primarily asked. What you find may shock you.
You've obviously done yours, or are just making shit up and want more people to Google the name of the engine (see [1]). Why don't you actually introduce some evidence or link to some sites that verify your claims (not just telling us to go to mmowhatever.com and fend for ourselves), rather than making extraordinary, unsupported claims and leaving it to us to verify, if any of us actually gave a crap.
Personally, I see no reason to think that this engine is a scam. However, even if I were in the market for a ~$50,000 engine, I think I'd look elsewhere, as there are some (previously mentioned) aspects of the site seem...unprofessional (I have no problems with you not being a native English speaker, but if this is the case, then shouldn't you hire someone who is to write your English documentation? Or at least write it in a program with a built-in spell-checker?).
Edit: Also,
Quote:Original post by Ravuya
The rash of brand new, verbose posters in this thread has attracted my attention.
I propose a Lounge Thunderdome.
I concur.
Quote:Original post by tunabun
I never flamed, I stated a warning.
I can only say this, do YOUR homework as I primarily asked. What you find may shock you.
I wish I could say more, for now I will have to look like a disgruntled customer. The future will tell if I am more than meets the eye.
Thanks for giving this subject the attention it deserves.
I appreciate some of the members coming to our defense. I think all this is a lot more simple than people are making it, but I will give some history as i understand it.
The game Age of Mourning was built using this an earlier version of our game engine and was released around 2-3 years ago. The original owner of that title ran out of money but sold pre orders for Mourning in hope they could use the funds from this to complete the game. I believe the game was at one point live but extremely buggy and so it was short lived. Many people felt ripped off, as they should have and this was the start of bad reputation of the game. Keep in mind, the original funder of the Mourning title was just one person. The Romanian companies that developed the title just developed the title and the engine and it was the sole funder that decided to release the game.
After Mourning proved to be a failure, Colton Burgess and Loud Ant Software bought the game and the engine in an attempt to get the game live again. I know Colton Burgess as I bought all of the assets from him. They tried for a year i believe to get the funding and talent needed to get the funding and they failed. He also got in very heated debates and threatened to investigate and sue a number of people for various things. He was quite the despicable character on the forums. However, to my knowledge he never did anything illegal and in fact would NOT release Thrones of Chaos (the remake of Mourning) because they were never able to finish it. So as much as Colton was a bad guy and completely out of line, I have seen nothing that indicates anything was done illegally. If I wrong here please show me some facts.
We bought bought everything from Loud Ant Software 6 months ago. We knew right off the bat there was no hope for the game Thrones of Chaos. The reputation of this game had been dragged through the mud because of failure of past team to deliver. We decided to break the game apart and sell its only valuable assets, the models.
The engine, which is the reason we bought it in the first place, has been worked on extensively to keep it current.
We are simply behind the engine technology which is a great product. If developers want to buy our product they do a ton of research before doing so. Like i said before, we do not sell our engine for less than 50,000.
It is completely irresponsible and evil to call everyone that has anything to do with this project a scam. It's both sad and comical that a company such as Quad Software has been brought into this. All these companies you portray as frauds with no fact, these people have done nothing wrong.
Tunabun it would be one thing if you did what you did based on facts, but we still haven't seen any. It really is evil, wasting people's time and hurting families.
This is the thread where tunabun and friends discuss he Mourning ordeal:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/37720/page/56
Troy
[Edited by - troypowell on June 8, 2007 3:11:29 PM]
I failed to see how the engine could be a scam. It seems quite legit to me - although it has a strange history. Pointing to non-updated DNS information don't help much (although I suggest Troy to contact LoudAnt in order to have that fixed), and besides that, I see no other argument. Mr. Burgress might be a con artist, that doesn't make Chaos Software (the company of Troy) a scam company.
Without any argument from tunabun, and considering the fact that the accusations are quite important, I'd like him to (publicly) apologize (the reason for the public apologies is that 1) I beleive it's fair 2) I don't want gdnet to be associated to this personal vendetta).
For my part, I see at least one argument that should make you think about the validity of tunabun's statement: if I own a company and I want to buy the engine
Now, it's true that the web site is quite poor, and not very informative. In order to sell a technology at this price, one must create confidence - and given the fact that it's a game engine, it would be better to have a commercial grade web site. It's not very difficult, does not cost much (given the number of talented web designers you can find on the intarweb), and in the end is a very valuable asset. So, Troy, I urge you to do something for your website (including an in-depth correction of the various texts you display). If you want a comparison, consider a competitor of yours: gamebryo.
Regards,
Without any argument from tunabun, and considering the fact that the accusations are quite important, I'd like him to (publicly) apologize (the reason for the public apologies is that 1) I beleive it's fair 2) I don't want gdnet to be associated to this personal vendetta).
For my part, I see at least one argument that should make you think about the validity of tunabun's statement: if I own a company and I want to buy the engine
- I can try it; I don't have to buy it in order to see if it's a scam engine or not - there is no way I will spend money on an engine without trying it. If Troy doesn't let me try it, I won't buy it. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want that.
- once I have tried it, I can buy it, for 50,000$. Softwares of this price come with guaranties. If it's a well done scam, I can fight back (legally) and Troy's going to pay Heavy Dollars. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want that.
Now, it's true that the web site is quite poor, and not very informative. In order to sell a technology at this price, one must create confidence - and given the fact that it's a game engine, it would be better to have a commercial grade web site. It's not very difficult, does not cost much (given the number of talented web designers you can find on the intarweb), and in the end is a very valuable asset. So, Troy, I urge you to do something for your website (including an in-depth correction of the various texts you display). If you want a comparison, consider a competitor of yours: gamebryo.
Regards,
Colton Burgess is not to be trusted under any circumstance. He will go to any length to see his scams make money even if that means violence, threats and possibly murder. Some on this forum wonder why tunabun is being very mysterious it is because Colton is liable to do anything against anyone who tries to disrupt his schemes to make money. It has happened before I observed earlier this year a poster on mmorpg.com that had Colton's wraith turned on him. Colton posted in this thread http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/98226/page/1 under his mmorpg.com account bearing both his name and status as C.E.O of Loudantsoft that he was skipping the country after selling his game, he also posted many insults against the mmorpg.com posters which now live on in many mmorpg.com posters signatures. One poster decided to post that Colton should be reported to the I.R.S for his unethical business practices and this caused Colton to go berserk. Colton then hired private investigators to track down that poster and possibly even harm or kill him/her http://www.neverwinpoker.com/phpnuke/html/ftopic-33200-0.html. This lead to http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/112702 which speaks for itself.
[Edited by - Welles on June 10, 2007 2:33:35 AM]
[Edited by - Welles on June 10, 2007 2:33:35 AM]
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