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Alpha_ProgDes

Every fighter has the same move list

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Let me explain. In most games, players have the different button presses for the different characters. So if you learn the 35 different attacks of Forest Law, then you might have to learn another 23 for Armor King. My suggestion is that all the characters have the same move lists (button presses for attacks). But those button presses don't necessarily do the same thing. For instance, everyone has an attack that's execute by pressing G, P, P, K. Now for Forest Law that could be a grab and multi-hit combo. For Armor King, that could be a Block/Parry and Suplex. Now personally I would have a button sequence (or three) that is unique to that character. But I guess my point is that if you pick learn the button sequences for one character, then you have learned them for all characters. It just you'll have to learn what attack that sequence executes (because it won't be the same thing, well not necessarily the same thing). I figure that would ease development and player's ability fight and strategize quicker and more effectively, then having to learn a plethora of button sequences/move lists.

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Don't most fighting games do that anyways? The last time I played Tekken 3 every character had a huge list of combos and basic attacks but they were all pretty much the same. There are only so many combinations on a controller you can do. I agree that it would be easire to play if all button combos were the same, but that would take away different players mastering different characters for the viscious versus battles.

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Surely the idea is that they're deliberately different? Obviously the basic moves are identical but the complex ones differ to give a real sense of learning an individual character, as opposed to just learning the game and reskinning the figure onscreen. It gives a real feel that something is different. It also plays a useful role in handicapping players; someone can agree to play with a character they don't know very well and will have fewer moves available.

On top of that, putting moves that operate completely differently for different characters on the same keypresses is going to make it harder to memorise them. Quite often the sequence of keypresses relates semantically to the move you're performing, even if it's a slightly tenuous link. Break that link and you make the memorisation a lot harder.

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Obviously in a fighting game, there need to be differences between the different characters in terms of basic attacks, mobility, et cetera. Special attacks should also be significantly different, though. If you have two fighters that play with completely different styles facing off against each other, then you get an interesting fight. If everyone has the same style, just with different animations, then things get rather boring. For example, you compare a grab+multi-hit attack to a grab+throw attack. Both attacks are ones that (presumably) penetrate blocking, deal some damage, and push the enemy back. They'll be used in similar situations.

Personally, I think that Super Smash Bros. had the right idea when it comes to special attacks. Not only do the attacks not require arcane button presses (standard attacks are all A + direction; special attacks are all B + direction), but they're different while being somewhat predictable. For example, every character's Up+B ability aids them somehow in vertical recovery, whether it be via an uppercut, a teleportation spell, a simple midair jump, or any of several other things. The Side+B attack directs power to the sides, by e.g. charging, firing a ranged attack, performing a special melee attack, and so on. Standing B attacks keep the player in-place, whatever they do. Down+B attacks direct power along or at the ground. This slight predictability in abilities makes it easier to learn to use a character while maintaining distinctions between characters.

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Quote:
Original post by Derakon
Obviously in a fighting game, there need to be differences between the different characters in terms of basic attacks, mobility, et cetera. Special attacks should also be significantly different, though.

Agree.
Quote:
If you have two fighters that play with completely different styles facing off against each other, then you get an interesting fight.

Agree.
Quote:
If everyone has the same style, just with different animations, then things get rather boring.

For the record, that's not what I am suggesting.
Quote:
For example, you compare a grab+multi-hit attack to a grab+throw attack. Both attacks are ones that (presumably) penetrate blocking, deal some damage, and push the enemy back. They'll be used in similar situations.

For clarity, since I used Tekken characters for example, I was comparing Kung-Fu with WWF-style wrestlling. Also it was a grab + multi-hit attack vs. a block (or parry) + throw attack. So they can't be considered the same.

Quote:
Personally, I think that Super Smash Bros. had the right idea when it comes to special attacks. Not only do the attacks not require arcane button presses (standard attacks are all A + direction; special attacks are all B + direction), but they're different while being somewhat predictable. For example, every character's Up+B ability aids them somehow in vertical recovery, whether it be via an uppercut, a teleportation spell, a simple midair jump, or any of several other things. The Side+B attack directs power to the sides, by e.g. charging, firing a ranged attack, performing a special melee attack, and so on. Standing B attacks keep the player in-place, whatever they do. Down+B attacks direct power along or at the ground. This slight predictability in abilities makes it easier to learn to use a character while maintaining distinctions between characters.


I really need to play more Nintendo games [smile]

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Besides Tekken and other 3D fighters, try Guilty Gear XX. The majority of fighters (about 20 or so fighters) have the same moveset. Not the same moves, but when you do QCF QCF HS, you're going to pull off a move.

Despite an easy learning curve for the moves though, there's a huge learning curve for the game. Just because you pull off a deadly special move with one move, if you try another character, that move could end up losing you the match.

Some characters MoveX is a fast high attack, other characters it's a slow recovery low attack, etc. Other characters it doesn't actually attack, but rather guard/combo breaks.

If you like 2D Fighters, I seriously suggest trying it. Guilty Gear XX > All things Street Fighter, and is the game of choice for fighting game competitions in Japan. (Although, avoid Isuka, Dust Strikers, etc. Just play the games that came out in the arcade).

[Edited by - Nytegard on June 8, 2007 3:40:42 PM]

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It seems to me that you would not remove the need to learn the character, because, since they still have different attacks on ABABAB or whatever, you'd need to relearn what combinations are appropriate in what circumstances.

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Quote:
Original post by King of Men
It seems to me that you would not remove the need to learn the character, because, since they still have different attacks on ABABAB or whatever, you'd need to relearn what combinations are appropriate in what circumstances.


Exactly!

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Quote:
Original post by King of Men
It seems to me that you would not remove the need to learn the character, because, since they still have different attacks on ABABAB or whatever, you'd need to relearn what combinations are appropriate in what circumstances.
I don't think anyone's arguing that there would not still be learning involved, but it's entirely possible (and, I daresay, recommended) to lessen that slope where you can without harming the depth of the game. If every Down+A attack is a sweep, then a player who is trying a new character has a fairly good idea what's coming when he inputs Down+A. The specific details are different, and it may well turn out that the playere, had he known those details, would not have wanted to do a sweep at that particular time, but the fact that he does not have to blindly try out button combinations to figure out what results in which move saves drastically on learning time.

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Different characters are there to present different fighting styles, not different sequence styles. In my opinion, it's better to give all characters the same sequence to do a similar type of attack. If F,DF,F performs a rising anti-air attack for one character, then all character's rising anti-air attacks should use sequences that are similar to that.

I think the relationship between controls and special moves is slightly important when dealing with the complexity or effectiveness of attacks. Such as F,DF,F,Punch performing a more complicated attack than DF,F,Punch. Aside from that, I don't think players should be required to learn new sequences, or explore possibilities of sequences, to learn new characters. The major function of sequences in fighting games are to give players a large array of moves with a limited number of buttons. To give more control to players, not to add more complexity. Mastery of fighting games is not about learning sequences. It's about anticipation and strategy. Punishing other players for being slow, repetitive, and predictable.

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