Quote:Original post by Sirisian
If you choose flash be prepared to use TCP as UDP is not supported. Also make sure you're good with programming and don't expect amazing visual effects as flash can't handle them. However, if you are really good at culling the rendering you'll be fine.

I think the reputation of Flash being slow is outdated. They really stepped it up a few notches with the latest player (Flash 9). The VM even has JIT compilation these days, so I wouldn't be suprised if their performance is on par with Java.

Flash 9 is new enough that I don't think anyone has written anything truely impressive with it. But there are a few proof-of-concept software renderers floating around, and they look decent. I'm not sure if any of those renderers are free and ready to use, so you might have to write your own.

Lack of UDP is definitely a problem though.

Im sorry i do not have much to contribute to this thread but i was just wondering if you do end up starting this project, it would be great if you also start up a journal or log to keep us updated, since it sounds interesting:).

Quote:Original post by Antheus
No MMO uses TCP. Real-time aspects simply aren't reliable enough given the traffic requirements.

You do realize that most use TCP right? A tiny example would be World of Warcraft.

I'd recommend going 2d with flash unless you have some good experience developing 3d games, AND artists to help you with models/textures, not because 3d games are harder to make but because you'll have to deal with compatibility issues, driver problems, etc. If you go 2d, you'll most likely need to do modeling and texturing too (render to sprites).

I'd say runescape is successful because it's basically a persistent game that you can play anywhere using any computer, it doesn't matter if it has a crappy 3d card or cheap processor, it'll most likely run.

A few weeks ago I played a mmorpg about pirates and ships, I don't remember the name of the game, but IIRC they are making a couple of millions off that game which is surprising because the game is fairly "underground". It uses flash for everything, you might want to search it.

Quote:Im sorry i do not have much to contribute to this thread but i was just wondering if you do end up starting this project, it would be great if you also start up a journal or log to keep us updated, since it sounds interesting:).

Deal. I think that's a good idea.

Quote:Webstart is the way to go. If you go Java, go all the way. WebStart isn't just applet in a window. It's a whole patching/updating/streaming system. You gain nothing whatsoever by limiting yourself to an applet. You just lose a lot.

i had come to that conclusion too, decided to start with WS. turns out there a port of jME to applets, but even in the setup tutorial the author discourages using applets over WS for 3d. WS won't have any problem on computers with restricted user accounts (aka, ones that don't let their users save or install files)?

Quote:Unless you intend to provide MS Java compatibility, but then you're stuck with Java 1.0, so forget JOGL and the rest.

stuck with java 1.0 for applets? or for applets AND WS? i really want to use jogl/lwjgl :(

and you're right-- silverlight was a bad idea, i was just thinking out loud.

Quote:Consider this: Runescape didn't make it big because of 3D or Java or running in browser or having good graphics or anything as such. Look into what made Runescape big.

i'll keep googling, couldn't find that information before. until i find it, maybe you could enlighten us? :)

Quote:I'd say runescape is successful because it's basically a persistent game that you can play anywhere using any computer, it doesn't matter if it has a crappy 3d card or cheap processor, it'll most likely run.

Agreed. that's what i'm going for.

Quote:A few weeks ago I played a mmorpg about pirates and ships, I don't remember the name of the game, but IIRC they are making a couple of millions off that game which is surprising because the game is fairly "underground". It uses flash for everything, you might want to search it.

ha! that game SUCKED! yet they had that oh so wonderful ad-sense bar to rack in their dough. you might be right, it almost might not even be worth the effort for 3d if using CS3 for RAD will get my game out their quick and easy, full browser penetration & no worries. I'm still thinking about it. I just get so giddy when i see things like at http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=84 and think those could be run in the browser.

Funny you mention jME because I was going to recommend it in case you really want to go 3d,I've used it before and I can say it's the best java based engine out there, it's based on LWJGL , it supports shaders, comes with its own GUI system and exporters like COLLADA which makes your life easier when making levels/scenes. I know what you mean by getting giddy when you see such beautiful graphics running on a browser. But you have to realize that making a 3d game means tons of work. Unless you have a really smart game design that requires few models and levels, you have to be prepared to spend a LOT of months making the game. Well to be honest making a high quality 2d game would mean also tons of work with graphics. Just check Dofus, another 2d flash based mmorpg and you'll see what I'm talking about.

You're gonna need a lot of experience if you use flash. I switched from C++ to AS3 a few weeks ago for a change and started programming an mmo framework in it. Without the very efficient spatial partitioning system I use then flash wouldn't be able to handle the large maps I give to it. I can't tell if you have a lot of programming experience from your posts because it's no simple task.

Yeah and just so you know TCP is generally used for mmo games. I prefer to use UDP normally because I make top down shooters, but TCP isn't bad for that either.

Another reason to use java. In my experience you want the server and the client to use the same language and java is good for that. At the moment I've just been programming the engine and keeping it soft coded and ready for the networking. Put it this way I'm using VB.NET for the server due to the easy GUI and I had to write a full wrapper class so that flash and my server could communicate perfectly. Not to mention I have to basically reprogram a lot of code in VB so the simulations will both be in sync with one another. A real pain!

Also if this is your first mmo game you might want just shoot for multiplayer with like 32 players. Some mmo concepts are tedious to implement. Especially zones if you go that route.

so my big question is if jme can handle full-fledged browser mmo (via webstart, i'm assuming) that could be run anywhere-- what the cons are (loading time, etc), and why i wouldn't go jme except for cost of development.

to be sure, cost of development is a consideration. i'm no pro, but i've made a full dx game in c++, a half applet-based 2d mmo, and a p2p flash game. i'm good enough with 3dsmax and blender, know the culling, coll'n detection algos, etc. i'm not bragging, i just want to make it clear that while development process is important to me, what's MORE important to me here is which technology is more likely to attract a larger audience -- quick-and-easy 2d, or heavy-and-awesome 3d.

dofus is rad, btw. i've been using dofus vs. runescape for my comparison over the past while. and from what i've read, it sounds like more people are in favor of flash over 3d for browser mmo

check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MMORPGs
says that there are 2mil dofus players, just shy of guildwars at 3mil, and there are 7mil runescape players, just shy of wow at 8. (then there's 2nd life, never heard of it). if dofus and runescape are included in the list of topdogs, beating out DAOC, EQ2, Lineage2, and the like, that's saying something for browser-based games. dofus is "ok" as far as 2d goes, and runescape is just plain shite. They have nothing on guildwars and wow. So unless there's something i'm missing, it's all browser / play-anywhere concept.

Now between dofus and runescape, i don't know if it's because runescape came first or happenstance, but runescape is substantially more popular. I was thinking about scrapping together a flash game with scrape-by graphics and having a forum for my players where i'd ask whether they'd prefer a cleaned-up and upgraded version of the current quick-and-easy 2d, or a full shift to powerful 3d at the expense of webstart, downloads, and assets. I'll keep my players informed on development status, and this could be something of that journal we were talking about.

Quote:You're gonna need a lot of experience if you use flash. I switched from C++ to AS3 a few weeks ago for a change and started programming an mmo framework in it. Without the very efficient spatial partitioning system I use then flash wouldn't be able to handle the large maps I give to it. I can't tell if you have a lot of programming experience from your posts because it's no simple task.

i'm glad you brought that up, i was going to ask about space partitioning. i made a mini java mmo and could do quadtree bsp to cutout the uneeded portions of the map. can flash do that? at quick glance, i'm under the impression it can't since dofus uses hundreds of static-screen mini-maps instead of a chase-camera global map.

Quote:Another reason to use java. In my experience you want the server and the client to use the same language and java is good for that. At the moment I've just been programming the engine and keeping it soft coded and ready for the networking. Put it this way I'm using VB.NET for the server due to the easy GUI and I had to write a full wrapper class so that flash and my server could communicate perfectly. Not to mention I have to basically reprogram a lot of code in VB so the simulations will both be in sync with one another. A real pain!

right on queue, again! my roomate and i were discussing j2ee-to-java ease over connecting flash to another server-side language. how hard was it to program the wrapper class? I was thinking of using .net myself