If I ever get around to fully designing any of the MMO or RPG ideas I have, they will most likely be class base and skill based.
Classes offer bonuses and penalties to certain skills, and even could limit certain advanced skills to a given class. Then I'd use a "Libra" system that could balance the jack of all trades by applying further bonuses or penalties if a player chose to specialize in their class or be more versitle and choose more off class skills.
Players could also reallocate skill points via in-game trials.
Players would not be locked into anything permanently, and could even do a repeatable task to change classes ( at a loss of experience and a permanent penalty to previous class skills however).
Branching out too much would mean you can heal, buff , debuff , deal damage , and take damage; but you could only do those things at 10-20% of the strength of their potential.
Leveling would increase skills you are "focused" on and decrease skills you arent focused on. On class skills detierorate slower than off class skills.
I think this system would offer alot to various player types, and with careful balancing, be pretty good overall.
SKILL VS LEVELING IN MMOs
This is another thread I've been eyeing. First off, I want to start out with some light reading. Opinions are great and all, but enlightenment can be found only through research and study, not one's own backside (I include myself in that comment).
"Classes (plus, If Quoting History, You Should Know It)" Damion Schubert (Ubiq)'s blog post regarding Class v. Skill - He starts the following blog responses
"Ubiq's a Classy Guy" - blog by Lum
"Stay Classy" - blog by Jason Pace
"Class Systems suck, Skill Systems Swallow" - blog by Ryan Shwayder (Blackguard)
"MMORPG Classes" blog by Steve (Sierra Kilo)
"Like School in the Summertime" - blog by Steve Danuser (Moorgard)
"Do Classes Suck?" - by Raph Koster
IMGDC Class vs. Skill Debate - Follow-up after a roundtable discussion
"Social/Political based MMO vs 'level' based? (Academic)" Thread here started by Talroth
Preface: I am going to assume that everyone is okay with me calling "Levels" a "class" system. For the most part, those go hand in hand, but not always. So, if you have an issue with that, state so in your comment so we can follow you.
This thread is rehashing the discussions that have already taken place. So where do we stand? I will state up front that I am a Skill-based proponent. It has been summed up nicely for us. Classes are easier to balance, easier to design, and just easier to get out the door. It has been mentioned that budget constraints are a reason why some designers shy away from a skill-based system. So, why is it that the topic still rages? I think it is because there is still a large portion of the gaming world that is looking for such a game. The topic keeps coming back because they have not been satiated since the days of UO (in my case).
We are now thick in an MMO market that caters to babies. That's right, you heard me. Obese, spoiled Dudley Dursley's. And what are the game designers/developers doing for them? They are giving them more cake...they are making it worse. WoW is a prime example. Give the players what they want now, without any thought of what sort of players they will become. Why does this matter? Becuase it effects the games we design tomorrow (or the ones we are designing now, for tomorrow). Players now have high expectations for their product. If it does not meet them, they don't just stop playing quietly, they go out in a blaze of glory. They flame the forums, they post on slashdot, they make their voice heard, to the detriment of the game they left. Essentially, they throw a tantrum.
So why am I mentioning this here in this thread? I am because that is what is going to make it hard for a game to deviate onto a path that only some want. Thanks to WoW (and others), we are now consigned to a niche market. Gone are the days where the true role player could bask in the glory of any MMO. We could pick any one of them and find something we liked. They were made for RPG players. MMO's are no longer made for us, they are made for the madden-playing, halo-playing, football watching mainstream. When the heck did that happen? Have you seen the debates on ESPN? Fantasy Football is what MMO's are becoming. There is money to be had, and designers who want it.
Okay, so I am getting a little sidetracked here, but I think it will all come back together in the end (I hope). My point is, I do not want a game like that! I want my nice skill-based game. I want to be able to do whatever I want in a nice virtual world that doesn't have these "others." Is this now even possible? I really doubt it. So, in this sad state, what is there left to do? Design and make one myself. Hopefully a niche market can reform and get enough attention to remind those who have lost site of what MMO's are supposed to be. They aren't fantasy leagues! They are places where we can act heroic and become the heroes we want to be. Who wants to farm gold? Argh!
So, we come back to Class(level) v. Skill. What does this have to do with the price of rice in China? This is where we draw the line in the sand and say enough. Enough cookie-cutters. I do not want to be delegated. I do not believe in a destiny that has been chosen for my by someone who wants money. I want to carve out my own future. So, I continue to rant and rave, but where does that get us? I'll make myself clear. I think a skill-based game can save the MMO industry from the Dudley's of the world. What is going to happen to this skill-based game? It is going to get trashed, griefed, picked on. It is going to suffer from what the industry has become. Then, it will press on, and in the ashes the phoenix will arise are bring forth a new generation in MMO design. Its a rebirth, an awakening.
Yes, this is all syrupy verbiage, but I think a sliver of truth lies within. I don't think a mainstream MMO is going to be able to pull this off. When there is money and publishers envolved, they are going to go in a predictable direction. It is left up to the indies, who are not tied to the puppet-master(s).
Specifically, I do not think a UO clone will do it. We (those who yearn for a skill-based game) have matured. The old isn't going to do it for us this time around. I think a hybrid system is what is going to take us to greener pastures. I am working on a skill-based design at the moment that has what I call "soft" classes. These are nothing chosen before you start. These are chosen only if a player wants to. They do not much more than give the player a title (like "warrior"), but the player can renounce his class at any time. This soft class will have some benefits, but only to those players who must have a class to find his place in the world. It will not give them any advantage over those players who wish to trek on without this distinction. The design is still raw, and is still on the chalkboard being worked on, but I hope its a step in the right direction.
I am glad to see that there are still so many who want to see a skill-based game out there. Indeed, it joys me to see so many of you (indies) working to create your own version of one. Hopefully (at least) one of us will be able stand as a beacon to those who are searching. May you fair well in your quest.
"Classes (plus, If Quoting History, You Should Know It)" Damion Schubert (Ubiq)'s blog post regarding Class v. Skill - He starts the following blog responses
"Ubiq's a Classy Guy" - blog by Lum
"Stay Classy" - blog by Jason Pace
"Class Systems suck, Skill Systems Swallow" - blog by Ryan Shwayder (Blackguard)
"MMORPG Classes" blog by Steve (Sierra Kilo)
"Like School in the Summertime" - blog by Steve Danuser (Moorgard)
"Do Classes Suck?" - by Raph Koster
IMGDC Class vs. Skill Debate - Follow-up after a roundtable discussion
"Social/Political based MMO vs 'level' based? (Academic)" Thread here started by Talroth
Preface: I am going to assume that everyone is okay with me calling "Levels" a "class" system. For the most part, those go hand in hand, but not always. So, if you have an issue with that, state so in your comment so we can follow you.
This thread is rehashing the discussions that have already taken place. So where do we stand? I will state up front that I am a Skill-based proponent. It has been summed up nicely for us. Classes are easier to balance, easier to design, and just easier to get out the door. It has been mentioned that budget constraints are a reason why some designers shy away from a skill-based system. So, why is it that the topic still rages? I think it is because there is still a large portion of the gaming world that is looking for such a game. The topic keeps coming back because they have not been satiated since the days of UO (in my case).
We are now thick in an MMO market that caters to babies. That's right, you heard me. Obese, spoiled Dudley Dursley's. And what are the game designers/developers doing for them? They are giving them more cake...they are making it worse. WoW is a prime example. Give the players what they want now, without any thought of what sort of players they will become. Why does this matter? Becuase it effects the games we design tomorrow (or the ones we are designing now, for tomorrow). Players now have high expectations for their product. If it does not meet them, they don't just stop playing quietly, they go out in a blaze of glory. They flame the forums, they post on slashdot, they make their voice heard, to the detriment of the game they left. Essentially, they throw a tantrum.
So why am I mentioning this here in this thread? I am because that is what is going to make it hard for a game to deviate onto a path that only some want. Thanks to WoW (and others), we are now consigned to a niche market. Gone are the days where the true role player could bask in the glory of any MMO. We could pick any one of them and find something we liked. They were made for RPG players. MMO's are no longer made for us, they are made for the madden-playing, halo-playing, football watching mainstream. When the heck did that happen? Have you seen the debates on ESPN? Fantasy Football is what MMO's are becoming. There is money to be had, and designers who want it.
Okay, so I am getting a little sidetracked here, but I think it will all come back together in the end (I hope). My point is, I do not want a game like that! I want my nice skill-based game. I want to be able to do whatever I want in a nice virtual world that doesn't have these "others." Is this now even possible? I really doubt it. So, in this sad state, what is there left to do? Design and make one myself. Hopefully a niche market can reform and get enough attention to remind those who have lost site of what MMO's are supposed to be. They aren't fantasy leagues! They are places where we can act heroic and become the heroes we want to be. Who wants to farm gold? Argh!
So, we come back to Class(level) v. Skill. What does this have to do with the price of rice in China? This is where we draw the line in the sand and say enough. Enough cookie-cutters. I do not want to be delegated. I do not believe in a destiny that has been chosen for my by someone who wants money. I want to carve out my own future. So, I continue to rant and rave, but where does that get us? I'll make myself clear. I think a skill-based game can save the MMO industry from the Dudley's of the world. What is going to happen to this skill-based game? It is going to get trashed, griefed, picked on. It is going to suffer from what the industry has become. Then, it will press on, and in the ashes the phoenix will arise are bring forth a new generation in MMO design. Its a rebirth, an awakening.
Yes, this is all syrupy verbiage, but I think a sliver of truth lies within. I don't think a mainstream MMO is going to be able to pull this off. When there is money and publishers envolved, they are going to go in a predictable direction. It is left up to the indies, who are not tied to the puppet-master(s).
Specifically, I do not think a UO clone will do it. We (those who yearn for a skill-based game) have matured. The old isn't going to do it for us this time around. I think a hybrid system is what is going to take us to greener pastures. I am working on a skill-based design at the moment that has what I call "soft" classes. These are nothing chosen before you start. These are chosen only if a player wants to. They do not much more than give the player a title (like "warrior"), but the player can renounce his class at any time. This soft class will have some benefits, but only to those players who must have a class to find his place in the world. It will not give them any advantage over those players who wish to trek on without this distinction. The design is still raw, and is still on the chalkboard being worked on, but I hope its a step in the right direction.
I am glad to see that there are still so many who want to see a skill-based game out there. Indeed, it joys me to see so many of you (indies) working to create your own version of one. Hopefully (at least) one of us will be able stand as a beacon to those who are searching. May you fair well in your quest.
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