Sign in to follow this  
thelovegoose

An alternative to standard training model (clever)

Recommended Posts

A players skills are divided into two sections - 1. combat and magic abilities 2. detection abilities combat and magic abilities are increased by absorbing a booster that some baddies carry. detection abilities are increased by killing a baddie. Detection refers to the ability to see whether a baddie is carrying a booster, and what type of booster it is (strength, speed, magic strength etc). So to begin with, players are unable to detect whether a baddie has a booster ie, whether it has any benefit to try and kill a particular baddie. After several victories, the player's detection skills improve and now occaisionally, some of those baddies carrying the booster let of a glow at short range. When the players' detection abilities have improved greatly, after a large number of kills, all of those baddies carrying the booster let off a glow and it can be seen at long range. When the players' detection abilities have improved massively, the colour of the glow will be different depending on the type of booster. This changes the standard training model significantly, as players will pick and choose their fights. It would be best complimented by having baddies that are hard to defeat, leading to a gameplay style at times of hit and run to avoid being overpowered by too many baddies when there is only one that is worth defeating. It would encourage more attention, strategy and skill in training, leading to a greater sense of reward for the player. Any problems with this? Has it been done already? Anyone think its great? [Edited by - thelovegoose on August 1, 2007 9:28:15 AM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by thelovegoose
Any problems with this? Has it been done already? Anyone think its great?


I'm sorry - i don't wish to offend you hear, but did you even re-read your post ?

Quote:
Original post by thelovegoose
When the players' detection abilities have improved massively, the colour of the glow will be different depending on the type of booster.

....


It would encourage more attention, strategy and skill in training, leading to a greater sense of reward for the player.

This implies that the player would have to improve "massively" to start using the real "strategy" in training - when he would probably be near reaching lvl. cap anyway. And if you implement this for low-level characters it would hardly be a upgradable skill.
Anyway, i don't play MMORPG's, but in standard RPG's there is ofen some detection spell/skill that alows you to see details about your enemy, so simply adding booster type to that skill would be sufficient.

And i hardly see the greater sense of reward - since not all of the monsters will cary a booster, where in standard leveling all monsters bring EXP. I think this would actualy have the opposite effect.

Perhaps i missed something ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by RedDrake
Quote:
Original post by thelovegoose
Any problems with this? Has it been done already? Anyone think its great?


I'm sorry - i don't wish to offend you hear, but did you even re-read your post ?


Did you read it a first time?

Quote:

Quote:
Original post by thelovegoose
When the players' detection abilities have improved massively, the colour of the glow will be different depending on the type of booster.

....


It would encourage more attention, strategy and skill in training, leading to a greater sense of reward for the player.

This implies that the player would have to improve "massively" to start using the real "strategy" in training - when he would probably be near reaching lvl. cap anyway. And if you implement this for low-level characters it would hardly be a upgradable skill.


He's saying it's an opportunity to familiarize yourself further with an enemy you've encountered several times. After 50 goblins or what-have-you, the ones with the best gear stand out, and it becomes more prominent as you encounter more of them over time. Just because you've fought against a particular type of enemy several times doesn't necessarily mean you've become beyond them, and it doesn't mean that they don't have worthwhile loot.

Quote:

Anyway, i don't play MMORPG's, but in standard RPG's there is ofen some detection spell/skill that alows you to see details about your enemy, so simply adding booster type to that skill would be sufficient.


It doesn't seem to be a skill you use explicitly, it seems like an interface feature. Where did he say anything about MMORPGs anyways?

Quote:
And i hardly see the greater sense of reward - since not all of the monsters will cary a booster, where in standard leveling all monsters bring EXP. I think this would actualy have the opposite effect.


That's the crux, instead of grinding through endless peons to get what you need, you develop the knack for seeing who has what you want. The idea is to get the user to pick his battles, instead of bludgeoning through a cave of chimera.

Quote:
Perhaps i missed something ?

Perhaps.

Anyways, I think it's an innovative alternative to the standard level grind. Granted, you'll still have to kill X bugbears before you can pick out the one you want, but you could get lucky too. It also seems to allow a little customization, if creature X boosts some skill, whereas another creature teaches you some spell - it's like learning that creature's secrets in a way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:

Did you read it a first time?

Three times before posting, to make sure i understand, and from the things he wrote, it's quite difficult to grasp the idea - so i mentioned re-reading (posts looks like a brain storm, rather than a taught out idea).

Quote:

Just because you've fought against a particular type of enemy several times doesn't necessarily mean you've become beyond them, and it doesn't mean that they don't have worthwhile loot.

Quite often it does ...

Quote:

He's saying it's an opportunity to familiarize yourself further with an enemy you've encountered several times. After 50 goblins or what-have-you, the ones with the best gear stand out, and it becomes more prominent as you encounter more of them over time.

Does it seem logical to you that you have to kill 50 creatures to avoid grinding ??? And in that 50 creatures you have no clue weather they will actually posses this booster ? In order to make this skill useful, you would need to make like every fifth creature to posses the booster you desire, otherwise it will come to often, and the skill would be useless. Now you kill 50 creatures, get 10%-20% of the busters that you actually need from them, and you are telling me that this would reduce the mindless killing ? Sorry but i have to disagree.

I think upgrading skill that are used like oblivion or Dungeon Siege is a LOT better way to avoid problems you mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by RedDrake
In order to make this skill useful, you would need to make like every fifth creature to posses the booster you desire, otherwise it will come to often, and the skill would be useless. Now you kill 50 creatures, get 10%-20% of the busters that you actually need from them, and you are telling me that this would reduce the mindless killing ? Sorry but i have to disagree.


That's just it - the detection skill helps you spot which monsters have what you need to raise your magic/combat stats. Even though you have to kill a small horde initially, you don't have to do it perpetually. It doesn't matter how many of that type of monster has the booster or not, because eventually the ones that do will stand out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks Assyrian, I think thats the summary I needed to explain it properly.
I'd really like to see this in action if anyone is at a stage where they could, or would like me to code it for their game...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by thelovegoose
Thanks Assyrian, I think thats the summary I needed to explain it properly.
I'd really like to see this in action if anyone is at a stage where they could, or would like me to code it for their game...


I appreciate the gratitude, but Assyrian? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While this feature might be interesting to see in action, and could be fun for some time, I think it works against some of the basic principles of RPGs and MMORPGs. In non-MMO RPGs we usually try to get the player to try different things, experience every part of the game world, and get an ever changing experience. However the feature discussed in this thread would simply encourage the player to keep doing the same thing, killing the same kind of monster, because the more times they kill it, the more it's worth on average. To discourage a player from killing the same kind of monster many RPGs give less and less EXP every time you kill it, but your feature is exactly the opposite.

Also players might be reluctant to move onto a new, slightly stronger creature because for the first x kills the weaker creature would give better rewards.

It would also introduce yet another way to boost new players in MMORPGs. An experienced player could easily go and look over a pack of creatures and point out to others which has the best loot. Some people might even do this for money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah sorry yes... thanks Errisian.

I think these are things just mentioned are things to be careful of, but don't invalidate the concept.

Moving onto a slightly stronger monster would probably not be beneficial to the player, so the jumps between monsters' strengths could be raised, the detection (as I was thinking initially) could apply to monsters of all types, the game could follow a linear path and the player have no choice but to find himself fighting stronger monsters.

The fact that better detectors could advise newer players is interesting - not quite sure if its a good or bad thing. But its only a problem in MMORPGs.

Also, its important to see this as training, not the main gameplay, perhaps when you reach a certain point (be it plot related, desirable region, player level) all monsters give you boosts, and normal grinding resumes.
Strangely, the player might be quite pleased to be grinding after the harder effort of weeding out targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by erissian
It doesn't matter how many of that type of monster has the booster or not, because eventually the ones that do will stand out.

Notice the keyword hear - eventualy - thats the thing i've been pointing out since post one.
The time taken to bring this skill in to effect would bore me to the death by killing same monsters over and over, and the fact that some of them might not even give me anything is even more discouraging.

In conclusion, i think CTar hitt the nail head with a single line :

Quote:
Original post by CTar
To discourage a player from killing the same kind of monster many RPGs give less and less EXP every time you kill it, but your feature is exactly the opposite.


The point i was trying to make all along ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's the motivation behind this mechanic? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't really understand what the point of it is.

It seems to me you're adding a new layer of skills that you need to grind in order to be able to grind your real skills efficiently. Which just sounds like more grinding to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by CTar
To discourage a player from killing the same kind of monster many RPGs give less and less EXP every time you kill it, but your feature is exactly the opposite.


Not necessarily, something to be careful of once more, but theres no reason why the rate of exp you are gaining should increase rather than decrease.

Look at it like this:

Say 1 in 3 monsters has a booster and you don't know which have it.
Say on your first level, you get 100 exp from each booster, the rate set by the game.
That means youre going to get 33 exp per fight.

By level 10 you've narrowed the monsters down to 1 in 2, 1/3 of monsters are glowing and you decide to attack another 1/6 that aren't.
But now youre only getting 50 exp per booster, the rate set by the game for level 10.
That means youre going to get 25 exp per fight.

In other words it decreases.

Also in final fantasy, while your levels went up slower the longer you went on, your abilities went up exponentially, so theres evidence some players like it that way.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by thelovegoose
To make games more fun/interesting.


That's a given for every thread in this forum. I was expecting a slightly more specific answer. How are you expecting this system to enhance the gameplay?

You say it will change the training model 'significantly'. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I don't really see what changes.

For example:
Quote:

Say 1 in 3 monsters has a booster and you don't know which have it.
Say on your first level, you get 100 exp from each booster, the rate set by the game.
That means youre going to get 33 exp per fight.

By level 10 you've narrowed the monsters down to 1 in 2, 1/3 of monsters are glowing and you decide to attack another 1/6 that aren't.
But now youre only getting 50 exp per booster, the rate set by the game for level 10.
That means youre going to get 25 exp per fight.


Why not just award 33 xp per monster in the first instance and 25 xp in the second? What do you actually gain from the added complexity?

I'm not trying to dismiss the idea, I'm trying to understand what you're trying to achieve with this mechanism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, the word grinding was used to describe the standard training model, because next to no thought is required, the process is generally static through the game, in that the way you grind doesn't change
The aim is to create a system that does involve thinking (mostly a more involved use of risk analysis), and is dynamic (the way you pick fights changes).
My initial feeling is that both of these amount to more fun training.

Edit:
Also I really think that the complexity is only in the understanding of a system spelt out in forum posts. If you could see it working you'd see its actually very simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems to me that what the OP suggests is that the boosters are more akin to skill ups, or improved abilities rather than traditional experience. So the benefit of having an improved detection would be that you could develop your character as you choose rather than fighting hordes of creatures for random stat increases. I think that level of control over character development would appeal to a lot of players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this