Tearing Down the MMO Boundaries

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37 comments, last by Sirisian 16 years, 8 months ago
Quote:
I think another problem is spawn points in general. This is a very exploitable design decision that, frankly, is outdated and needs to have a new technique. New games still using spawn points aren't delving deep enough, imo. I think spawn zones (large areas with randomized "spawns") can work better, but it is still not enough. I think with mob AI, we should also have things like mob dens (like some RTS's have (think Kohan)) could work. Moreover, if things are truly dynamic, mobs could certainly learn how to reproduce in such a way as to create higher leveled (skilled) offspring, also decreasing the chance of extinction.


Eve-online has randomized area spawning based on the security status of the system (zone) as well other hidden factors. Let me try to explain their system a bit more.

You have a solar system that you must port/jump into. This system contains planets, moons, stations, unique spots, and astroid belts. The system it self has a security status ranging from 1.0-0.0 (1.0, 0.9, 0.8...). The lower the security status of the system the harder the NPC and AI generally is. Systems like in our space are apart of a region/galaxy. Factions lay claim to these regions that then can fill their guilds in each system (NPC's in each system under a guild that is apart of the faction).

When you enter a belt, you can have a random group of NPC's spawn on you at random. Random as in a way that you don't know what style NPC's you will get but you will know they will be of X faction. You will also know based on the security status of how big they MIGHT be.

With that said, yes, some games are making the leap towards systems similar to what has been mentioned. Mostly systems that base off the group or player that enters the area or hits a trigger. I have not seen susch things as extinction though, don't think I ever will being it's really pointless and hard to maintain. None the less, things like that are out there, just have to actually do your research first...

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On the subject of having such systems. My personal opinion on it is that I would love to have spawns that did randomize. I hate fighting in a raid and having to do the same exact plan for each Boss because that's how you beat it. I want it to switch up and have real AI where if Im 10 feet away from me he aggros me other than me being behind the aggro line. I don't like the encounters to follow the same exact structure each time I do it, I want the NPC to learn from his previous 1000880480028302 deaths and kill my whole RAID including humping my corpse after we are cussing in teamspeak.

But really, who wants to die based on smart AI? Who wants to be faced with randomizing spawns that's harder to predict without thottbot or a fan site? We want easy mode and well easy mode sells. So yeah... Not that spawns are outdated or haven't been tough of being improved. It's inexperience telling you that something doesn't sell and this does...

7-year AAA Game Industry Professional (Retired)

Reborn Indie Game Developer (LFG)

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Quote:Now, about unique loot. I think that this has been proven to work in games like Diablo, Diablo 2...


Well, remember it's not really unique. It's unique to a single player, but everyone can get everything. It gives the appearance of being unique, which is probably all that matters. :) More importantly, the DiabloII community has made a game out of making character 'builds' out of unique armor and armor sets and then playing to collect the gear and achieve the build.

In a game with really unique items this can't be done. Something to think about anyway.
Limit the players strength, if they went against 100 easy guys, they would die just as quickly as going up against one of the hardest, without a sound plan in mind

that means even a army of goblins would be scary enough raiding your town, even if you was 10 times as strong

A level system simply wouldn't work for limited monsters, cause as was said, a high level would go into a low level area and kill everything

you would prob also need to run ingame time for monsters about 4 times the rate of players, so even if there where wiped out a ingame a couple of days later, real time that night, the monsters would be starting to creep back in
There is a lot here that I agree with. What about guild made quest? For example, a guild member could create a "quest" for an item which another member (or stranger) could carry out and thus gain payment and XP (assuming the game uses XP). If guild had there faction standing, a stranger could complete a guild mission and gain points toward that guild faction. Moreover, guilds (the guild master for example) could creat missions to destroy so many players from an enemy guild or contribute so much of x into the guild's stock room in exchange for XP or faction standing. These are just some quick ideas I came up with. To me it seems like a good way (not the only way) to allow players to create "content" using predesigned templates. It would also give players the ability to see the results of their actions and allow their actions to gain meaning. Just an idea I had. Perhaps I will make a longer response later but I just thought I'd through this out there.
Quote:Original post by SMPryor
There is a lot here that I agree with. What about guild made quest? For example, a guild member could create a "quest" for an item which another member (or stranger) could carry out and thus gain payment and XP (assuming the game uses XP). If guild had there faction standing, a stranger could complete a guild mission and gain points toward that guild faction. Moreover, guilds (the guild master for example) could creat missions to destroy so many players from an enemy guild or contribute so much of x into the guild's stock room in exchange for XP or faction standing. These are just some quick ideas I came up with. To me it seems like a good way (not the only way) to allow players to create "content" using predesigned templates. It would also give players the ability to see the results of their actions and allow their actions to gain meaning. Just an idea I had. Perhaps I will make a longer response later but I just thought I'd through this out there.


Things like that are unrealistic in MMO setting. Only because as a designer you would see yourself having fun with such a system where others would abuse such things.

One example, creating quests based on a template would be reduced to the easiest quest only to farm XP or faction without risk (if risk is a part of your game).

Another example, gaining faction towards a guild means nothing if the guild disbands for some reason along the road. That's like losing faction or XP without having any control or resistance to it. You just lose it based on other factors outside of your control. Even worse, players making guilds to only boost themselves then leaving.

When you put players in full control over anything, you will see bad results in almost all cases. Half of the players will use the system based on how it was intended by the designer and the other half will only try to exploit the free will.

7-year AAA Game Industry Professional (Retired)

Reborn Indie Game Developer (LFG)

@SMPryor: Unfortunately, Fastidious is correct. I would love to allow some things up to the players, but it doesn't work that way. I am very skeptical of allowing guilds any power over other players. Whether this is gifting, questing, etc. Because of this, I have even come up with an elaborate system to dissuade players from gifting unearned items to other players within a guild. I very much dislike the idea of one player getting ahead simply because he knows the right people. It sounds too much like one of the parts of Real Life that I go to games to get away from. The sad truth is that 90% of them will abuse this system and exploit it. The only way to add checks and balances is to allow GM's to moderate it, and that would be a huge waste of their time, which would take them away from other important duties.

@Dinner: The scenario you describe could just as easily never happen given it was designed to not allow it. If mobs are given their own areas of interest, their AI could be set so that they do not attack towns (at least not without a little GM prodding ;), hint hint). I think you are assuming the worst when considering the outcome of the idea. Yes, it is true that as a designer you must consider the worst, but the challenge is then to refine the idea, not to give up on it. ;)

@tolakram: I actually do think truly unique items can be possible. They may share the texture of another item, but the stats and name could definitely be unique (although in actuality, there would be a tiny mathematical chance of something being replicated from another drop, but the chances would be miniscule).

@Fastidious regarding players who want it easy: Thats why I am designing a niche game. I have no intention of pleasing such players. They will be fairly warned before ever trying our game. Picking a market and a target audience and sticking to it is very important. I would be very pleased to tick off a certain type of player to the point that they wouldn't play this game, assuming this is the type I don't want playing it. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in the real world. Here's hoping ;).
Erik Briggs (Jerky)Project Manager - Project Wishhttp://www.projectwish.comMy Blog
On the topic of uniqueness, I don't think things need be entirely unique and trying to make them that way would likely be a waste of time. All you really need to do is give the illusion of everything being unique, so say, there need to be enough swords that the chance of you finding the one you have in a general store or for sale is miniscule, not zero. What's it matter if an item is truly unique if you can make them NOT truly unique and no one (save .01%) ever finds another one like it?
Quote:Original post by Dekasa
On the topic of uniqueness, I don't think things need be entirely unique and trying to make them that way would likely be a waste of time. All you really need to do is give the illusion of everything being unique, so say, there need to be enough swords that the chance of you finding the one you have in a general store or for sale is miniscule, not zero. What's it matter if an item is truly unique if you can make them NOT truly unique and no one (save .01%) ever finds another one like it?


Unique should only really fall into an objects, character, skill, or spells rarity usage other than the item/object/etc rarity. Example, if you have a sword that is common to get (meaning the item is not rare, other characters will have it) that has a unique appearance to it. Then you might find players wielding the sword based on the unique appearance that is fitting to his character as opposed to others who don't wield such things because they have their own weapons that look good for their characters. That falls under the illusion of uniqueness really. It's only rare and unique based on the players interaction with the system / game.

Goes hand in hand with developing different builds and styles to character classes. You want players to pick builds that are unique to them to give them the impression that they are the only ones with X build and they play it the best. Hindering such things (making only 1 build workable in example) could cause all characters to be the same thus loosing any uniqueness to character classes in game play.

7-year AAA Game Industry Professional (Retired)

Reborn Indie Game Developer (LFG)

I've thought about this an I've I have a system I believe works for an mmo game, but it's based heavily on PVP rather than PVE. (I have work in a bit, so I'll keep this short). I just have to point out the thing about quests. Having a quest that can only be completed once sounds great. But take into consideration that in an MMO not everyone solos. Do you share that quest with your teammates? Another point is epic quests that have more meaning than the kill 5 something or others. Like kill arteus the evil mining boss. You know if you kill him another quest would have to be created to keep it persistent with your idea.

However, is the place where the quest is important? I mean if there is a building the enemy is in like a mine lets say. I mean the next content you make would have to use the mine in another way. Would it just be random quests via a system of instancing to trick players into believing that new content is there? If everything was instanced this might be possible. However, most players like to do things again and again to level. There are players that will play so long that they will begin to see the pattern. Like go collect 6 something at some place rather than 5 something else at another place.

Building actual unique quests in the game that everyone can experience doesn't hurt immersion as much as you might think. Knowing that the world is tailored for a specific quest and not just random quests also has an advantage. Creating the "spider" forest where a farmer tells you to kill three spiders that are messing with his crops makes sense. (I think :P ). Give the NPC more quests sounds like a better idea honestly. Then players can move on from an NPC or region knowing they have completed something other than staying in one place.

Having unlimited quests gives the player of feeling no accomplishment I'd imagine. They'd talk to the NPC later and he'd have another quest probably similar to the one that was just completed. Unless you are going for a lot of replayability then this idea is not needed. There should ideally be enough content in each area per level range which can be sufficient by making the world larger with more to do at each level range. Playing the game again in another place would be a different experience ideally much more worthwhile then receiving random quests.

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