Played out concepts, playa.

seanmusgrave · 2007-08-24T01:45:42

I'd be interested in people listing game concepts that they feel are over-used. I'll start. - Zombies - WWII - Medieval Europe - The Chtulu Mythos - Rome - Galactic Empires - MMOGs where you fight people, trade things, make stuff, join guilds and have houses.

Game Design and Theory Game Design

Started by seanmusgrave August 11, 2007 11:50 PM

75 comments, last by Trapper Zoid 16 years, 8 months ago

Anthony Serrano

3,309

August 16, 2007 04:19 PM

Quote:Original post by swiftcoder
The Player always wins.

I mean for gad's sake man, why can't the player lose once in a while - as part of the story progression. You don't have to die, just lose a battle and be forced to retreat and do something different. It would at least partially solve the whole 'Uber character who has never lost a battle' syndrome, and open interesting possibilities to the writer.

Gee, I could've sworn that I'd played countless games going back at least 15 years that feature unwinnable fights as a story mechanism...

ShinkaFudan

100

August 16, 2007 04:23 PM

Quote:Original post by Prinz Eugn
Orcs and Elves.

Seriously, let's move beyond Tolkien just a wee bit, please?

Quote:Original post by Humble Hobo
Genre Stereotypes:
Fantasy: Orcs, Elves, Swords, Medieval Europe, DRAGONS, and the same blasted magic system... Basically Tolkien rips.
Sci-Fi: Lazers, Space, SPACE PIRATES, Aliens, Ancient Race... Basically Star Wars rips.

Tolkien didn't invent Orcs, Elves, Swords, Medieval Europe, Dragons, or magic...
Lucas didn't invent Lasers, Space, Space Pirates, Aliens, or Ancient races...

kthx.

Anyway, a lot of games are coming out lately that defy the norm a bit more, like Bioshock (new unused setting, new character personality types, much different feel to the world). We don't need to dismiss the old ideas... that's just foolish. Zombies will always be fun to kill. Orcs and Elves will probably always be fun to kill or portray... they are stables of different story settings, as much a needed commodity as swords or firearms. We shouldn't be focusing on what to remove, as that just leads people to talk about things that are somewhat required by the industry... people that really don't understand how difficult it is to market new ideas to a public that is so used to the old ideas...

...and of course with conversations like this inviting posts from idiots, big surprise that we've got two fighting over god knows what and they can't simple PM each other... instead they have some moronic internet battle for dominance within the thread which they've completely hijacked and ruined.

Good job...

Also,

Quote:Original post by Anthony Serrano
Quote:Original post by swiftcoder
The Player always wins.

I mean for gad's sake man, why can't the player lose once in a while - as part of the story progression. You don't have to die, just lose a battle and be forced to retreat and do something different. It would at least partially solve the whole 'Uber character who has never lost a battle' syndrome, and open interesting possibilities to the writer.

Gee, I could've sworn that I'd played countless games going back at least 15 years that feature unwinnable fights as a story mechanism...

Chrono Trigger (SNES), pretty much the best game ever made, included this. A major part of the story revolves around you losing a fight to Lavos, the destroyer of Earth. Crono dies and you can choose to revive him or defeat Lavos in the future without him.

[Edited by - ShinkaFudan on August 16, 2007 4:23:58 PM]

This man made my day: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=523021

Zouflain

550

August 16, 2007 06:03 PM

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Tolkien didn't invent Orcs...

Actually Tolkien did invent the modern iteration of orc. The word Orc does not exist prior to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and it was derived from the word Orcah or something similar. It surprised me to find that out too.

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Lucas didn't invent Lasers, Space...

And yes, Lucas invented the word "blaster," which is why the original Battlestar Galactica got sued for using it. Well, alright, he didn't "invent" it as Tolkien did the word Orc, but he copywrited it and owned the license for such a weapon (named "blaster," not just any beam weapon) in fiction for many years. He still might, actually.

WHOA! You applied that edit RIGHT as I clicked quote. It's really odd, having a quote that's like 5 times larger than the text I was quoting ;).

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Bioshock (new unused setting, new character personality types, much different feel to the world).

Looks very good, btw.

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
We don't need to dismiss the old ideas... Zombies will always be fun to kill... Orcs and Elves will probably always be fun... We shouldn't be focusing on what to remove...

Not remove, avoid overusing. A game with Orcs doesn't go down as a Tolkien clone in my book immediately, but when the whole thing has nothing new, no new flavor to it, then I see it as a waste of time.

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
...and of course with conversations like this inviting posts from idiots, big surprise that we've got two fighting over god knows what and they can't simple PM each other... instead they have some moronic internet battle for dominance within the thread which they've completely hijacked and ruined.

I find you hilarious, and with this line lost all respect for you. If we're idiots, then why insult us? Why not ignore us like a mature individual? No, instead you make a foolish vie for dominance in an ultimately futile argument. Rather than insult us via PMs, you broadcast it in direct contradiction of what you've just said. That's rather pathetic. Also note, you're hijacking this thread yourself. What part of this post has a tried and tired concept that you're sick of seeing?

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Good job...

Couldn't have said it better.

Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Gee, I could've sworn that I'd played countless games going back at least 15 years that feature unwinnable fights as a story mechanism...

Gee, being able to name (correction, being able to obscurely reference) a few games that run contrary to the norm means that there is no norm and no cliche...

Tried and Tired Concept of the Day:
--Epic Good vs Epic Evil. Please, for the love of god justify the good guys being good and the bad guys being bad. In reality, you never have "good" and "bad" guys - everyone in every argument feels that they're "right," "good" and even (in most cases) "just." No one just does things to be evil, they all have motivations.

Anthony Serrano

3,309

August 16, 2007 06:38 PM

Quote:Original post by Zouflain
Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Gee, I could've sworn that I'd played countless games going back at least 15 years that feature unwinnable fights as a story mechanism...
Gee, being able to name (correction, being able to obscurely reference) a few games that run contrary to the norm means that there is no norm and no cliche...

You need to pay attention to context; ShinkaFudan didn't say that, I did.

And if you had paid attention, you would have noticed that it was in response to the assertion that the player always wins.

And Chrono Trigger is far from the only game that uses an unwinnable fight to advance the story; in fact, unwinnable fights that advance the story are practically a cliche of their own in the console RPG genre.

swiftcoder

18,997

August 16, 2007 08:34 PM

Quote:Original post by Anthony Serrano
Quote:Original post by Zouflain
Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Gee, I could've sworn that I'd played countless games going back at least 15 years that feature unwinnable fights as a story mechanism...
Gee, being able to name (correction, being able to obscurely reference) a few games that run contrary to the norm means that there is no norm and no cliche...

You need to pay attention to context; ShinkaFudan didn't say that, I did.

And if you had paid attention, you would have noticed that it was in response to the assertion that the player always wins.

And Chrono Trigger is far from the only game that uses an unwinnable fight to advance the story; in fact, unwinnable fights that advance the story are practically a cliche of their own in the console RPG genre.

Console RPG I very rarely play, so I will grant you that one - but tried a PC FPS lately?

Tristam MacDonald. Ex-BigTech Software Engineer. Future farmer. [https://trist.am]

Paradigm Shifter

5,832

August 16, 2007 08:40 PM

Zelda: Majora's Mask had the first boss encounter with the skull kid as an unwinnable battle, you had to knock the Ocarina of Time out of his hands and play the go back in time song to stop the moon crashing into the town and killing everyone, then do a Groundhog Day style adventure. Great game, probably my favourite Zelda.

EDIT: And the aliens stealing the cows... genius.

"Most people think, great God will come from the sky, take away everything, and make everybody feel high" - Bob Marley

ShinkaFudan

100

August 16, 2007 08:53 PM

Quote:Original post by Zouflain
Quote:Original post by ShinkaFudan
Tolkien didn't invent Orcs...

Actually Tolkien did invent the modern iteration of orc. The word Orc does not exist prior to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and it was derived from the word Orcah or something similar. It surprised me to find that out too.

Note: The word Orc in Old English means demon, and it was mentioned several times in the original Beowulf. Now, they may not have clearly defined it in it's image, but neither did Tolkien. Check back to the Hobbit, and see that he only defines it as a "monster, demon" and then continued to describe it by saying it had "orqini ogresse"

Quote:Original post by Zouflain
Also note, you're hijacking this thread yourself. What part of this post has a tried and tired concept that you're sick of seeing?

I do not have to answer the question at hand to be on topic. I was speaking of the general nature of the topic brought up by the topic lead, which makes me on topic.

This man made my day: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=523021

PlayfulPuppy

420

August 16, 2007 09:08 PM

"You are the X who must Y".

Although we're starting to see more games break this trope, it's still incredibly common. Evolving storylines feel so much more natural and are more interesting in my opinion; where you live your in-game life from task to task without knowing your larger purpose.

Half-Life did well with this. As you started the game, you didn't have a clear enemy or a clear goal. Shit went down, and you had to try and deal with it. Even as you finished the game, your exact purpose or goal was still never entirely clear.

Also, things always going according to plan. If I've got some 5 star general telling me exactly what to do and how to do it, then I might as well be some sort of droid. The power of a well trained marine or police officer is being able to make good judgement calls when a plan inevitably falls apart, let me have that chance.

ShinkaFudan

100

August 16, 2007 09:42 PM

Quote:Original post by PlayfulPuppy
"You are the X who must Y".

Although we're starting to see more games break this trope, it's still incredibly common. Evolving storylines feel so much more natural and are more interesting in my opinion; where you live your in-game life from task to task without knowing your larger purpose.

Half-Life did well with this. As you started the game, you didn't have a clear enemy or a clear goal. Shit went down, and you had to try and deal with it. Even as you finished the game, your exact purpose or goal was still never entirely clear.

Also, things always going according to plan. If I've got some 5 star general telling me exactly what to do and how to do it, then I might as well be some sort of droid. The power of a well trained marine or police officer is being able to make good judgement calls when a plan inevitably falls apart, let me have that chance.

I might go as far as to say that the majority of new storyline-driven games go the route of an evolving story. Some well-known examples would be Red Faction (just a miner that becomes a part of the revolution after it starts), Chrono Trigger (already mentioned CT, but you go for a while at the beginning not knowing your real enemy), Rainbow Six: Vegas (Nothing seems to fit together until near the end, when the connections become clear and your task becomes more defined), X3: The Reunion (Big plot twists and evolving storyline all over this game), and Half-Life 2 (You mentioned half-life but I thought I'd bring this up. When the professor is captured, you basically place yourself in prison to go find him, then escape out of the teleporter, and from there you need to define what your goal is based on what you find out as you're leaving)

It's almost as if evolving story-lines might soon become a cliche in themselves. People might say "I don't like how games always start you out as a nobody and then suddenly you fall into a task with no apparent relation to the end task".

This man made my day: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=523021

Luctus

584

August 17, 2007 12:11 AM

In RPG's how the hero right after the outset is barely capable of fending off a rat but a whole grand week later they can perform double backflips with a sword in each of their three hands while spurting fire from their ears.

Could we maybe have a slightly more believable progression of power please?

-LuctusIn the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move - Douglas Adams

Played out concepts, playa.

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