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blah900

Single player expected to be more sophisticated?

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I was wondering. I'm sorry if I accidentally offend anybody, I personally didn't mean to. So my question is, is single player game expected to be more sophisticated and more indepth and detailed compared to online games? Is that why most indie developers start with MMO, or do I have the concept wrong here? Especially RPGs?

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Yes and a HUGE no to your questions.

Yes to the fact that a single player game needs much more depth than your common mutiplayer games. Multiplayer typically doen't need a storyline and can skimp on graphics since the focus of the game is community interaction.

HUUUUUGE NO to the MMO part. I have never in my life heard about an indie developer starting an MMO as his first project and completing it. MMO's are by far the hardest games to make that can even be concieved. The only reason that they start out with MMO ideas is because they think they would be "so cool", and in the process fail to think about the technical aspect.

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Quote:
Original post by blah900
Is that why most indie developers start with MMO, or do I have the concept wrong here?

I'd like to point out that most indie developers don't start out with MMOs. Usually it's the really naive ones, usually under the age of 20 and with no formal computer science education, who think "I know Java, I can program teh internets!".

These cloud-nine kiddies are "indie developers" only as much as karaoke singers in a bar are "musicians". These "MMO" projects typically get thrown out as soon as they realize how damned difficult it is to actually make a game, especially one that requires a server-side game world.

Every once in a while a real team, with real experience, decides to make an indie MMO. These guys rock and should be saluted. But they are such a rare breed that it's hard to take any "indie MMO" guys seriously.


As far as your question about single-player games: you're making a broad generalization. Tetris is the obvious counterpoint, but lets get a bit wider. What do you mean by more "in depth"? If you mean number of levels, of course single player games need more levels because the size/number of levels if often the thing that keeps players playing. If you mean amount of "stuff" in the game, I would disagree that they are any deeper. In fact, MMOs tend to overdo the number of stats, items, abilities, etc because they have a large number of people that all have to feel like they are a unique character in the world.

I think it's a waste of time to try and consider how "deep" games should be. A game should contain everything it needs and nothing it doesn't. It should be "just long enough" to give the player their moneys worth without being so long it wears itself out. It should have the right amount of stuff that the average player will see most of your content, with a small percentage of stuff that only hardcore players will see. The rules have to be this vague because in theory every game should be a substantially new experience, so the rules change with each project.

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Ahh, thank you for your kind replies.

So what would you consider more difficult, single player RPGs or mmorpg.
Well let's say to make playing the game worth it.

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You know, I'm not really even sure...

The answer may seem obvious (MMO) but there is a difference between difficulty and expense.

I would personally say that planning, coding, and artisticly designing a single player RPG would be more complex. HOWEVER, mmorpg's take litteraly millions to start up a resonable server.

"HEY KIDS! DID YOU HEAR ME OUT THERE? MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!!!"

Anyway, overall, A 3D RPG made by a small indie team is a little bit out there, bt not impossible. A 3D, top of the line, fully functional MMORPG is no more than a wet dream of very ignorant 12 year old "game designers".

The bottom line here is, a AAA MMORPG would be more worth making and playing... but it doesn't matter. No matter who you are or how 733T you think your coding is, you're NOT going to make one... period.

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Even just in terms of game design - disregarding all of the technical issues - making an MMORPG interesting is much more difficult than making a single-player RPG interesting. That's in part because you have a lot of mutually contradictory goals:

* You want the game to reward skill, without making it unplayable by unskilled players
* You want the different characters to be distinct, while staying balanced
* You want each character type to have multiple viable paths
* You want to encourage players to treat each other positively, while still allowing players to fight each other

In short, MMORPGs are a balancing nightmare. In contrast, in a singleplayer game, it's not such a huge issue if the player gets more powerful than his opponents. You still don't want to have massively game-breaking balance issues, but there's a lot more leeway - each instance of imbalance only affects one person, instead of (in an MMORPG setting) that person and every other player they'd encounter - so small imbalances are fine.

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I do with Derakon, what I was refering to though is more story-line and graphicly realated. MMORPG's might never have the graphics that single player RPG's have, simply because so much CPU time is put toward transfering data back and fourth.

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Actually, networking load has relatively little to do with how pretty the game is. There's plenty of very pretty FPS games out there, and they're doing just as much networking as an MMORPG is - the FPS just demands better latency and more frequent updates than the MMO does. Most MMOs have relatively poor graphics simply so that they aren't shutting out half their potential market by requiring a top-of-the-line computer to play.

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Quote:
Original post by Derakon
Most MMOs have relatively poor graphics simply so that they aren't shutting out half their potential market by requiring a top-of-the-line computer to play.


Another reason also comes from the MM part of the MMO. While the majority of the time there isnt really any difference in the number of players in the immediate area, MMOs do have some occasions, such as player trading hubs, where the graphics need to be able to be handled for those hundreds of characters all on the screen at once.

In other words, its partialy a trade-off between graphical "coolness" and number of creatures on-screen. Much the same as it is for RTS games.

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