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Freshman in college (advice)

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Started by Chris Reynolds August 15, 2007 05:26 PM

31 comments, last by nobodynews 16 years, 8 months ago

Yann L

1,806

August 16, 2007 01:01 PM

Just a few comments (from personal opinion / experience):

Quote:Original post by ironpoint
Career:
- Forget about game development as anything other than a hobby. If you are skilled and go this route you will likely find yourself underpaid, surrounded by druggies and a-holes, and taking orders from non-techs who are paid twice as much to tell you to work harder.

Mostly true.

Quote:
- Forget about graphics as anything other than a hobby. Graphics, as a field, is nearly done. There is only so many combinations of pixels in a 2D rectangle. It is a small application of physics, computing, and geometry. You won't be paid much more than someone cranking out HTML.

Nonesense. Saying that graphics (especially combined with physics and optics) is done is like saying that the universe is conquered since man was on the moon. Good graphics programmers are extremely difficult to find on the job market right now. And the few that are available get very well paid.

Quote:
- There are higher end versions of these fields that pay much better: simulation, CAD/CAM, physics, engineering, etc.

This is quite true.

Quote:
- Concentrate on skills that the world needs, not your hobbies. Plan on completing a professional or research degree now, MBA, JD, PhD. Don't plan to be a grunt. Do something few else can do (e.g. an appendectomy, examining contracts, million dollar proposals, etc).

Degrees are overrated. A PhD doesn't guarantee that you won't end up as a grunt. Some of the most successful people I know don't even have a degree.

Quote:
- Your goal is survival in the world (hopefully). Someday you may be 50, broke, and have cancer and will not care about c++. Go for the $$$.

Money is nice and all, but don't forget about the difference between "living to work" and "working to live". Don't underestimate the importance of life quality. Enjoy your life, you only get one. Don't waste it on trying to make millions, and then die of a heart attack from too much stress. Earn enough to make a good living, but don't make it your only priority to earn as much $$$ as possible. It's too easy to fall into that trap.

ironpoint

122

August 16, 2007 07:53 PM

Quote:Original post by Yann L
Just a few comments (from personal opinion / experience):

Quote:
- Forget about graphics as anything other than a hobby. Graphics, as a field, is nearly done. There is only so many combinations of pixels in a 2D rectangle. It is a small application of physics, computing, and geometry. You won't be paid much more than someone cranking out HTML.

Nonesense. Saying that graphics (especially combined with physics and optics) is done is like saying that the universe is conquered since man was on the moon. Good graphics programmers are extremely difficult to find on the job market right now. And the few that are available get very well paid.

I'm thinking more in terms of traditional graphics research since this seems to be what a university program would be geared towards. My feeling is that when images can be produced which can't be distinguished from photos, then there's not much else to do in graphics. Realism is done. Consumers now expect that any image can be generated with CGI and the gains for improving image quality and realism are very few.

Then there is the feeling that, no matter how much one studies graphics, it will never have the same impact as say, superconducting magnets or jet engines. It seems that it will only lead to slightly better movies and games.

In terms of graphics programming, There are many jobs. But, I think most of these are way too demanding for what they pay. Graphics jobs seem to me as usually product development oriented. Companies expect the products to stand alone and make millions. These pressures aren't placed on many business programmers who only maintain or update systems, or develop products that aren't marketed outside the company. The kicker is that companies don't see (or acknowledge) the huge difference in responsibility and required knowledge. As a result, ASP .Net jobs can pay better for MUCH less work and expertise. To a manager, the two are almost the same job.

Samith

2,465

August 16, 2007 08:35 PM

Quote:Original post by ironpoint
Quote:Original post by Yann L
Just a few comments (from personal opinion / experience):

Quote:
- Forget about graphics as anything other than a hobby. Graphics, as a field, is nearly done. There is only so many combinations of pixels in a 2D rectangle. It is a small application of physics, computing, and geometry. You won't be paid much more than someone cranking out HTML.

Nonesense. Saying that graphics (especially combined with physics and optics) is done is like saying that the universe is conquered since man was on the moon. Good graphics programmers are extremely difficult to find on the job market right now. And the few that are available get very well paid.

I'm thinking more in terms of traditional graphics research since this seems to be what a university program would be geared towards. My feeling is that when images can be produced which can't be distinguished from photos, then there's not much else to do in graphics. Realism is done. Consumers now expect that any image can be generated with CGI and the gains for improving image quality and realism are very few.

Then there is the feeling that, no matter how much one studies graphics, it will never have the same impact as say, superconducting magnets or jet engines. It seems that it will only lead to slightly better movies and games.

In terms of graphics programming, There are many jobs. But, I think most of these are way too demanding for what they pay. Graphics jobs seem to me as usually product development oriented. Companies expect the products to stand alone and make millions. These pressures aren't placed on many business programmers who only maintain or update systems, or develop products that aren't marketed outside the company. The kicker is that companies don't see (or acknowledge) the huge difference in responsibility and required knowledge. As a result, ASP .Net jobs can pay better for MUCH less work and expertise. To a manager, the two are almost the same job.

You do realize that the goal of achieving realism is not done, and even if it were, the field of graphics would not be "done." Graphics and visualization is a broad field. Non-photorealistic rendering is a big field in graphics and that certainly isn't "done".

RivieraKid

706

August 17, 2007 06:44 AM

ironpoint: you sound bitter. Its important that you enjoy your job. I honestly think I will look forward to crunch time and post crunch celebrations in the games industry. You dont need money to have a good time, you need people you enjoy spending time with.

you'll meet more fun people in the game industry, i would think.

Funkymunky

1,420

August 17, 2007 06:29 PM

If you are interested in actually doing it, and not just in getting a job doing it, then start doing it. When you have free time, try writing shaders. This book, for example, is very difficult to comprehend, but if you can understand all of it then you can write your own lighting techniques and possibly change the industry.

Math classes might help, programming classes might help, etc. All that really matters, however, is you. If you can do it, then you can do it.

Oh, and have fun! College should be a blast!

random_thinker

282

August 18, 2007 02:39 AM

Quote:Original post by GameDev Doctor
Quote:- Some sciences pay less because they have already been extensively researched. For example, Chemists are paid similarly to policemen. Computer science seems to be going in this direction.

I'm actually pretty worried about this, and think it could make you pretty unhappy. I think its a pretty valid point, regardless of how much you care about money...Could you stand working really hard for long hours when your work is as "valued" as that of people who never went to college.
For that reason I'm probably going to go with computer or electrical engineering - theres nothing stopping you from programming during free time if you enjoy it.

Look...the idea that a field like Chemistry of Computer Science salaries are low because the field has already been researched is nonsensical. These fields have hardly touched the surface of research, and always will be in this position. In a similar vein, the late ex-President Truman tried to close the US patent office during the 1950's because he felt that everything that could ever be invented had been invented. In fact, for computer science graduates, exactly the opposite is true; it is reckoned that by the time a 4-year student graduates, what they learnt about computers in year one is already obsolete.

If salaries are low then it is because of the demand for a skill or knowledge versus the supply of that skill or knowledge, and this changes with time; it goes up and down. The main consideration a student should consider, when looking at a technical education, is whether he or she should be in an applied technical profession, such as the various engineering fields, or a pure science. To some extent this depends upon what you enjoy doing, and what your goals are in life. Engineering fields (and some others) offer a career path that includes professional development, professional regulation and certification, so getting that degree is just the first step in a long series of professional development requirements. Chemists, on the other hand, can be found everywhere, but from what I've seen tend to do best in a corporate R&D or University-type environment. New Zealand Dairy Products, for example, employ an army of chemists for R&D (of new powdered milk and development of manufacturing processes.) For their major clients, such as Nestle, they have full-time chemists based at site, just to deal with any problems. There are companies like Nobel, Welcomme, Lafarge and many others. You just have to use your imagination.

At the moment there seems to be a lot of computer science graduates in the market, but this is probably a transient condition. If you really enjoy this then study it. There is no sense in studying something that you don't enjoy, because you will only be average (or worse), and you can do better for yourself.

As far as technical careers are concerned, I've always considered which careers could likely be fully computerised in the future. For example, about 80% of civil engineering now is done by computers (as compared to the 1970's)...all drafting, computation, etc. This had a huge impact on engineering employment during the late 1980's and early 1990's but that has settled now, as fewer engineers need more specialised skills to operate these systems and more awareness of computer technology. During the last 3 years hourly rates for CE's in the US have risen 26%, and salaries are following well above inflation, after being stagnant for some time. I do not see this same scenario developing in fields like chemistry and computer science, because these are more freeform, creative and less defined than the engineering professions.

Whatever you decide to do, approach it with joy, energy and spirit. Get up each day and consider what exciting task you are going to achieve, and then try to do it. We all can make our own contribution to make the place a little bit more fun for the next guy.

-PS...once you find something you enjoy, be it computer science with a graphics concentration, get involved in professional societies. You'll learn a lot more this way, get to meet people in industry, and also enhance your career prospects. You might even get a really good job opportunity that is not advertised this way.

--random_thinkerAs Albert Einstein said: 'Imagination is more important than knowledge'. Of course, he also said: 'If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith'.

ironpoint

122

August 18, 2007 11:02 PM

Quote:Original post by random_thinker
Look...the idea that a field like Chemistry of Computer Science salaries are low because the field has already been researched is nonsensical. These fields have hardly touched the surface of research, and always will be in this position. In a similar vein, the late ex-President Truman tried to close the US patent office during the 1950's because he felt that everything that could ever be invented had been invented. In fact, for computer science graduates, exactly the opposite is true; it is reckoned that by the time a 4-year student graduates, what they learnt about computers in year one is already obsolete.

No field hasn't been researched completely. The things that pay money have been extensively researched for decades and decades. The things that a recent chemistry grad can do as a job have been researched for decades. The things an industrial chemist does have been done for decades. It is known, lots of people can do it, and it doesn't pay as much as newer and less researched fields.

ironpoint

122

August 18, 2007 11:43 PM

Quote:Original post by RivieraKid
ironpoint: you sound bitter. Its important that you enjoy your job. I honestly think I will look forward to crunch time and post crunch celebrations in the games industry. You dont need money to have a good time, you need people you enjoy spending time with.

you'll meet more fun people in the game industry, i would think.

All I can say is that I have a very good job for you. It doesn't pay well, but there is a lot of crunching involved. Post launch celebrations for coders and artists include 2 free beers at Applebees. Appetizers are extra.

Luckless

3,283

August 18, 2007 11:44 PM

Quote:Original post by ironpoint
Quote:Original post by random_thinker
Look...the idea that a field like Chemistry of Computer Science salaries are low because the field has already been researched is nonsensical. These fields have hardly touched the surface of research, and always will be in this position. In a similar vein, the late ex-President Truman tried to close the US patent office during the 1950's because he felt that everything that could ever be invented had been invented. In fact, for computer science graduates, exactly the opposite is true; it is reckoned that by the time a 4-year student graduates, what they learnt about computers in year one is already obsolete.

No field hasn't been researched completely. The things that pay money have been extensively researched for decades and decades. The things that a recent chemistry grad can do as a job have been researched for decades. The things an industrial chemist does have been done for decades. It is known, lots of people can do it, and it doesn't pay as much as newer and less researched fields.

What is a newer and less researched field than Computer Sciences?

Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

Arek the Absolute

350

August 19, 2007 12:20 AM

A few bits of advice:

I have no idea about the foreign edition textbook thing that ironpoint mentioned, but if you don't choose to go with that option, I recommend getting your textbooks online or through any source other than campus bookstores, which tend to charge more than say, amazon. Also, if at all possible, try to confirm exactly what books are necessary before you buy. Ideally I'd say go to the first class and then order, but obviously sometimes that might make the timeframe too tight. The reason I say this, though, is that I've on several occasions seen books listed as required that are really only recommended and not actually used in the course: Therefore, a waste of money.

I also personally recommend attending all classes as much as possible. I had a number of general education requirements (English, history, things like that) that were often lecture hall classes that were sparsely populated until a test came around. I found that these classes were worth attending even though it couldn't be required, and most people didn't, simply because it saved time from having to learn everything before a test from reading and homework.

I still have one year left, but the only specific regret I have so far is that I haven't done very well to get out and meet new people, instead of just the handful I've known for years. If you're the same, you'll probably save yourself some trouble if you find some way to force yourself to get out and deal with people outside of your class schedule.

-Arek the Absolute"The full quartet is pirates, ninjas, zombies, and robots. Create a game which involves all four, and you risk being blinded by the sheer level of coolness involved." - Superpig

Freshman in college (advice)

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