Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Why ur all going so wrong (revised)

This topic is 6074 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

From reading your postings I can tell that you have gone completely wrong in your ideas. One word to remember is AGE: Atmosphere Gamplay Enthusiasm The firs two words pretty much speak for themselves however the enthusiasm factor is rarely appreciated. For example my favourite game is hidden and dangerous, this is because I have a strong enthusiasm for WW2 games because I am interested in this period. Even if someone is not interrested in WW2 they can easily pick up the game and familiarise themselves with the situation. Fantasy RPGs have the fatal flaw that no-one can actually be interrested in the world you have created because they are completely unfamiliar with it, however if a gamer is instantly familiar with the idea of the game then the game must be a cliche! This is why i suggest to all who are thinking of making a game, to make agame themed in the past; for example the game I am working on is a FPS set in europe in about 1200AD where you fight as a hired mercenary with swords, bows horses ect. Missions include sabotage, assasinations and the rest. Now go forth and recreate the past so we can move forward!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do not agree with your statement that no one can be familiar with or interested in a fantasy world. There are numerous authors of books and movies (especially books) that create a fantasy world that is so well described and so connected to real aspects of life that to the reader/viewer the world becomes real and familiar. The imagery used and events that occur combined with the reader/viewer''s imagination brings the world to life. The same is possible with a well made RPG. The storyline, depth of character, and choices and interactions between the player and characters allows the player to become imersed in the world. This is possible with any RPG, not just the fantasy sub-genre, the important thing is that the storyline makes sense (ie. motives are given for actions, characters respond appropriately to emotions, and the sequence of events flows and is not disjointed.) I have no problem with an RPG set in the real past, I just think that a fantasy world is also fully capable of becoming familiar and real to a player with good presentation and appeal to the players imagination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree also

The only thing that counts is internal consistency. Game players (people nowadays in general) are used to a wide field of ideas... thats why people enjoy scifi movies, just as well as fantasy films....

in fact, if you go for a "historical" setting creating an environment that´s right is a lot harder, as you don´t only have to take care of the internal rules, you also have to make it historically accurate.

Have you actually checked you history? Were there mercenaries in 1200? If yes, what did they really do? When was the longbow invented? Are they going to speak old high german? ... lots of questions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree too. The thing is i love fantasy worlds because they give you the feeling of something fresh. What i mean by that is that its different from the real world. I think that whole point of a fantasy world is to change the rules around, remember that if you are making a wwii sim then you really cant change much but if your making a rpg that takes place in a fantasy world anything can go. Personally i love both real and fantasy in games as long as they are used correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Um, Siegfried (can I call you Sieggy? *just kidding* )

By what would you attribute the *HUGE* success of...

AD&D

or

Star Trek

or

any number of a hundred different books, games, and movies that aren''t set in a known, familiar universe????

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see from your many dissagreements that I have have not stated enough. For a start Wavinator: I am not talking about commercial success I am refering to the quality of games. For example the biggest selling game in Britain currently is "Who wants to be a millionair?" now this game is hardly anything remotely special, however it has sold like hot cakes .
As for Hase''s comments: yes I have resurched deeply into 13th century european history and I have thought about all of the historical gaming aspects, and yes there will be old english and german

Hoside,
quote:
The thing is i love fantasy worlds because they give you the feeling of something fresh

Now Hoside may fing stagnant water delicious however I dont, what I mean is do you really fing wizzards, orks, elves, magic ect. "fresh"? I certainly dont.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry Seigfreid but I must also refute your proposal. Put simply your comment that "Fantasy RPGs have the fatal flaw that no-one can actually be interrested in the world you have created because they are completely unfamiliar with it" simply has no basis in fact. If anything "discovering" a new workd is what actually attracts people.

There are VAST amounts of succesful game, literature, film and TV entertainment that are based in fantasy enviroments (either mythical or SCi-Fi). The hoards of Star Trek, Star Wars and soon to be Lord of the Rings fans totally disprove your thesis.

Simply quoting a single example of a game which is not based in a mythical environment (Millionaire) does not prove your theory. All it proves is that people like games based on popular TV quizes AS WELL as liking games based in fantasy environemnts. - Mario games, Ocarina of Time, Star Wars games, Doom, Quake, Half Life, UT, Ultima...... the list is huge.

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also disagree,

My favorite game of all time is Jedi Knight, based on a universe that im not completley familar with.

But, it''s my favorite game because in my opinion it''s got one of the most involving storylines in a game I''VE ever played (plus the added bonus of playing with a Light Sabre Hehe), another game i feel is a good example of a good story is Red Alert.

Anyway, what im sayin'' is, taht in my opinion the factors which make a GREAT game are gameplay and story line.

-Nuffsaid

Wossanme wossname wossname

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think I see what you''re saying, Siegfried.

If you want a game to appeal to the masses, it should be something they can immediately relate to, and should probably have a non-violent theme.

I disagree that Hidden and Dangerous is any more engaging to the masses than Final Fantasy VII. I can no more relate to WW2 than I can with casting a magic spell, since I''ve never been in war.

What I can relate to is getting up, going to work, coming home, buying stuff...ah, The Sims. I''ve also been to quiet a few amusement parks ( Rollercoaster Tycoon ).

I like violent games as much as the next guy, but Joe Q. Public doesn''t like the idea of "killing" and "being killed." Building an amusement park doesn''t carry the same type of stress. Same goes with The Sims.

Ut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sigh...

In order to make everything clear I really should have written alot more, personally I find that a fantasy story can only be interresting if it has parrodies to normal life ie. Lord of The rings (burning of the shire represents the destruction of the english countryside) and of course Invasion of the bodysnatchers.
However sadly with most fantasy RPGs the storylines are tacky, shallow and wholey uninterresting. Thinking back can you really tell the tale of Zelda without feeling embarrased? Anyway as for the joy of discovering a new world goes, there is an elemant of fun there, however most fantasy RPGs give you such a lack of freedom that discovering a new world can be a frustrating and misserable experiance.

Siegfried

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well Siegfried, that depends on your viewpoint of RPGs... I don''t really consider "action adventure" an RPG, but without getting into the nitty gritty of why I hate console games (particularly so-called RPGs), if you try to enjoy something for what it is not intended to be, then NO, you won''t enjoy it.

I think you''re missing the point of creating fantasy worlds... authors of such realms usually conceptualize a tale or history based on an idea that they had, mixed in with something they are familiar with. There are some exceptions, but many works of fiction are based very slightly on "logical alter-reality", or something that makes sense if you assume some given factors are acceptably realistic for the setting (magic, lightsabers, Spiderman''s web-shooters, etc). That''s what makes these games great: you are given a chance to perform the unthinkable and utilize small powers or technologies that, compared to normal "here on Earth" reality, is exciting. And people like to be excited. (Hence the numerous action / FPS games on the market?)

In any event, realistic games are great too (Soldier of Fortune, Rainbow 6, etc), but they can''t really be compared to fictional games, simply because there are no outstanding fantasy elements in realistic games that logically could (or for that matter, should) be compared to fiction.



MatrixCubed
http://MatrixCubed.org






Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I only read the first msg so here is my response to that:

Bullshit.

I read so many books that become the world around me... I am more familiar with their worlds than I am with the one that I live in... What''s more, there is so much more interesting scenarios (well, interesting to me) that can appen in such worlds... Therefore I think it is wrong to base a game that you can relate to higher than a game that is very immersive. An immersive game can be much better than a true-to-life game.

I have a strong interest in Fantasy (true) but not all fantasy games are good enough to cut the grade. I play games for pure entertainment, and sometimes enlightenment.... what more enlightenment can I get from a WW2 Fighter Plane game... I have seen so many documentaries that I consider that I have covered all the boundaries. In a fantasy game, I see people living by a different rule, with different rules... This allows me to wonder if the huntsman is more content at life than I who count my days hacking through the devils minions...

Maybe there is really no relevance to familiarity with topic at all and it is just a coincidence with you... Traci Harding writes about a very uncovered topic of Atlantis which is described much differently from anything else I have ever heard described or seen in my life... And I WANT this in a game... because it is SO damn cool. It doesn''t suit an AGE, it is a combination of Past, Present and Future.

That is enough ranting from me though

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK... Now having read through the majority of posts I would just like to reiterate how I find it absolutely the best thing out of all my gaming experience to wander through undescoverd UNDEVELOPED fields... One reason I PREFER fantasy is the lack of Metallic, Concrete and DULL BORING SHITHOUSE structures every 500 meters. These days it is hard to find a place where you can look for miles out over rollig hills and not be able to see a warning beacon to inform aircraft that there is a hill there!

Fantasy is a step backwards in industry, but a step forward in brain power. It is having the best of both worlds. The ease of living and the beauty. This is one reason why I like Australias Capital City, my home, Canberra. It is called the Bush Capital for a reason... Because there are trees everywhere, and not the poor excuses for vegitation that most places have. There is a forest right next to the city, and there is so much GREEN that really relaxes you... the polution is not what it is in other cities... you can actually breathe.

GREEN! This is what draws me to Fantasy. The fact that I can wander around in a lush world. A world without concrete. A world without powerlines... That, and the fact that I would be able to hurl a fireball at anybody stupid enough to say that fantasy can''t draw crowds because it aint familiar. The only people that it wouldn''t draw are the people who are afraid of the unknown.

BOLDLY GO WHERE NO PERSON AFRAID OF THE UNKNOWN HAS GONE BEFORE... DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL AND BUY FANTASY GAMES BECAUSE THEY ARE BETTER... VOTE MADKIETHV PRESIDENT FOR NOT CLOSING THIS THREAD

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah well Sig... I agree with most of the above so no more on that from me...


I´m glad to hear that you´re going for historical accuracy, but don´t you feel that that is a little constraining? Having to double-check everything with the history books?
And please, even if it might be unrealistic, leave out the OE/ME, or the OHG.... nobody, and i really mean nobody can actually "speak" OE. I can translate it with a stack of books and a knowledge of latin and german but that´s about it.
OHG is a bit easier to get, but not from hearing it either.... What you could do (definitely interesting imo) is let the voice actors speak the original language in question and subtitle it... you´ll have a hard time finding anyone to do the translations for you, but localisation would be a lot easier....

I suggest you go for middle english with subtitles, there will be a few people around who can translate for you, and reading me is not that hard (doesn´t mean understanding though). People will pick up a few words here and there, so you´ll have to keep the subtitles anyway... or maybe have the intro start out in the original language and then switch to modE? THat way players would know where they really are and still understand everything.

one more thing.. did you say FPS? S as in strategy? or simulation? cause you´re not going to do too much shooting in 1200ad (Try pulling an original english longbow, just for fun).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LOL and ROTFLOL
Dont worry the game will be made in semi understandable English of Chaucers period with subtitles
As for the FPS part I think the S stands for stabber, so its a first person stabber/sneaker/shooter(if u have a crossbow)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You´re talking about middle english i presume? hehee.. have fun there (I´ve done some Chaucer translations, it´s hard enough doing it the one way... ).

btw, i´m REALLY looking forward to your game, it definitely sounds interesting.

Oh, and to sum up my position in this debate: YOURE SO VERY WRONG SIEGFRIED

people love to explore new worlds, always have.

I think what youre arguing against is not fantasy and fiction in games but the clichés you have encountered... and the thing about the english countryside in the lord of the rings? I never got it. And still enjoyed the book immensely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, as a counter and a sustainer to Hases post all at once: I did not like the Lord of the Rings. I did, however, get the English conotations in it. It was very much there, but the story was entertaining, though lacked the depth that I have come to expect from writers. It had history (one form of depth) but lacked proper character development (more important aspect of depth).

Anyway, I am going OT> Just thought I would prove that you don''t have all either like lotr, and still like fantasy... Just another POV

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just to go against the grain... I''m going to back Siegfried up!
(He deserves a little backing up, he managed to get two threads over 10 posts in a weekend without a flame war ).

quote:
Original post by Siegfried
However sadly with most fantasy RPGs the storylines are tacky, shallow and wholey uninterresting. Thinking back can you really tell the tale of Zelda without feeling embarrased?



How true, how true!!
Not that I''ve played Zelda, but a lot of those RPGs do have stories that make you cringe. Lets take everyone''s FAVORITE example, Diablo. Yep, I know, we''ve argued it to death in these forums, Diablo ISN''T an RPG, but it IS called an RPG by most people playing it.
Diablo does suffer from a lack of perspective. There''s this really big evil dude, and he''s like, really really REALLY evil (though he hasn''t really done anything terribly wrong yet, but trust us, he''s REALLY REALLY REALLY evil), and if you whack this really evil dude, you''ll be like the hero of the local tavern, because erm, well, erm, he was bad for the local economy for his body odour. But hey, he has horns, he MUST be evil!

Can someone explain to me again why I should risk my characters life to go down into that dungeon? You can''t? Oh well, back to playing the Sims

An historical perspective from a significant event in history has the potential for emotional involvement. There is a whole truckload of emotional material available for anyone wanting to make a game based around WWII or in that time frame. People lived through it.
You can do the same for fantasy though (and I think Siegfried actually intended to say that, just not quite loud enough). You can build up a "history" for your world, create some emotional involvements and emotional repercussions for your actions. Make you feel as if you''ve really messed up when you lose the game. You''ll feel that way if you lose WWII in Siegfried''s game already. The challenge is getting that emotional context in a fantasy game.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ah... you are pitting what against me? Diablo... Luckily I am well versed in such matters

Well, why are we against Diablo? He has turned a king insane and possessed his son. He had then preceded to kill the king and resurect his skeleton as a minion. He then preceded to kill every member of the town, whilst releasing hoards of evil creatures that threaten to kill on sight. His loyal supporter lead townfolk into the depths of the cathedral only to be masacred by the butcher. Need I say taht he is a psychopath who is responsible for death.

THEN... When returning in Diablo II he has possessed not just a mere mortal, but OUR FAVOURITE HERO FROM THE ORIGINAL. This is below the belt completely. He starts off by slaughtering all the poor invalids in a bar and then forces another to follow him. He spreads destruction and death in his wake and is the cause for countless deaths.

I am not embarassed telling that tale... It is a bit more mature than the one for Zelda...

So peh! to you on this issue MKV... pick a better example!....

*dwarfsoft remembers who he is talking to*

Um.. with all due respect your magnificence ;P

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How dare you possibly consider that fantasy is redundant mr King Goblin.. uh.. Sir

But I do agree with you about the emotional content, however - that realm still lies on the other side of the river from where you secured your boat MKV

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
*and Dwarfie takes the bait*

Where exactly do you learn about all those little things in Diablo? Not in-game I tell ya! I played Diablo at university back when it came out. You know, the "not quite so kosher" version that didn''t have any of the movies (I was young and ignorant ).

When you''re playing the actual game, you never EVER feel that involvement. At least I didn''t. But of course, that was a long long time ago and I might have gone senile since then.

My point: if it''s not in-game, don''t bother with it. I don''t care about movies at all. If I want a good movie I''ll go rent a video. Make it in-game, and stop wasting time and effort on the movies. It''s the GAME that has to make people buy your stuff.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What do you mean no involvement? I slaughtered King Leorics Skeleton good to let him rest in peace

Well... Ok, so it really doesn''t involve you, but at least it was a good introductory to the possibilities of RPGs for newbies like me (at the time)



-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Well, I disagree with Siegfried much like everyone else. I would just like to say, that being able to use magic and walk around killing monsters isn''t much different than a "hitorically correct" program where you walk around africa and have to hunt wild animals and try not to get eaten alive all while trying to avoid very harmful insects. Well what I''m trying to say is, I can''t relate to either one, so why would the historically correct one appeal to me any more than the other. As for your ww2 idea, I think that''s great that you''re writing it, and you think it''s good and all, but I wasn''t at ww2, nor do I know that much about ww2. I never held any of the guns used in ww2, and I don''t talk/read/write the same as the people from ww2. So if I were given a game about ww2, i''d be completely lost. Now give me a game that you use taser guns, I could relate better due to me playing laser tag (which is fun). I''d rather play a game of laser tag in an unkown area than re-play ww2.

Billy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by MadKeithV

*and Dwarfie takes the bait*

Where exactly do you learn about all those little things in Diablo? Not in-game I tell ya! I played Diablo at university back when it came out. You know, the "not quite so kosher" version that didn''t have any of the movies (I was young and ignorant ).

When you''re playing the actual game, you never EVER feel that involvement. At least I didn''t. But of course, that was a long long time ago and I might have gone senile since then.


My point: if it''s not in-game, don''t bother with it. I don''t care about movies at all. If I want a good movie I''ll go rent a video. Make it in-game, and stop wasting time and effort on the movies. It''s the GAME that has to make people buy your stuff.



Um, wasn''t *most* of the story in Diablo in the form of voice acted scrolling text from the characters in town? That, and the quests??? After all, it was Griswold''s narration of the battle with the Butcher and Farnam''s drunk & teary-eyed tale that told you what happened to the town in the first place, right? Surely that is in game.

I mostly agree with you, though, about not feeling the involvement, but only because of 1/10th of the game involved story / narration. The other 7/10ths was a pest extermination sim, with the remainder a flea market sim.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites