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Mark Tanner

Q3 BSP legal issues

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Hi, The new PR BSP features rock, but I''m interested in the following: According to what I''ve read, the Quake3 BSP format is open source (i.e. everyone can use it) but you cannot use any of the Quake3 tools to create it, since then you''d be breaking a license agreement with ID software. Chris (or anyone): Since there are no other good tools that I know of, is it then possible to LEGALLY create a commercial PR game with a BSP? Is there a way around this? I read some post from Chris a while back (I don''t remember which) that there is a way not to break the license agreement. I think this is pretty important for anyone wanting to use PR for commercial games (== professional games). Does anyone know more? Chris, I''d be esp. interested to hear your comments on this, Mark

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Perhaps look at other free map editors:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/quest-ed/
http://www.planetquake.com/Quark/
http://qeradiant.com/gtkradiant.shtml

These are just a few of the ones I found in a few minutes of searching.

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We had this problem with QeRadiant. The EULA explicitly states you can not exploit it in any way for a commercial purpose unless you have purchased a license. We were into heavy development with it when our publisher pulled funding due to this.

I almost think that any of the tools released by ID have these same limitations, just nobody has bothered to walk the line.

Item e states this pretty clear:
2. Prohibitions. You, whether directly or indirectly, shall not do any of the following acts:

a. rent the Software;

b. sell the Software;

c. lease or lend the Software;

d. distribute the Software (except as permitted by section 3. hereinbelow);

e. in any other manner and through any medium whatsoever commercially exploit the Software or use the Software for any commercial purpose;




Edited by - Shawn on April 24, 2001 1:40:47 AM

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So what you''re saying is that the BSP stuff is pretty much useless except for freeware projects, or you buy a license from ethier id or another person who makes BSP software..??

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Guest Anonymous Poster
This is apparently a very important issue. The BSP is really great but how would we make a commercial game without breaking license agreements?
By the way does anyone happen to know how much Q3Radient''s license costs anyways?

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I think you could probably risk it, but ID might decide you made something kick ass and tie your weenie in a knot.

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Here is the licensing page for Q tech:
http://www.idsoftware.com/corporate/idtech/index.html

The only sources released under the GPL are Q1. Q2 requires 125K to license. Valve purchased a license. I would contact The Todd guy and ask him if there are any issues to be worked out before using any tools based on the ones released by ID. The editors that I looked at all used the vis/bsp/etc. tools created by ID. Worldcraft was bought by Valve and only supports Q2 and HL. Quark appears to be the only ED that exports Q3 arena files, and it uses the ID tools. If Todd says it no prob, have fun and build away .

Better safe than sorry.

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Who the hell is Todd?
So, in conclusion we cannot use any of those editors for commercial projects because they use ID tools, right ?
One question, and if we use ID tools to build the bsp file, and then just extract what we want to use to another file of our own format, for example , imagine we don''t want PVS information or entitys etc , so we would just extract vertices/lightmaps/ texture assign information, how would the licence affect us this way ?

thanks,

Bruno

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I have been trying to find a 3DS to Q3 BSP converter as that would be a way of making BSP`s without using any of ID`s tools. I have found a 3DS to QuakeI Map converter, has anyone found one for QuakeIII?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I am really interested to see what Chris has to say about this.
Is it possible if Power Render users can all pitch in a little for PR to buy the license of one of those BSP editors? I''m willing to give some money but I''m not sure too many others would.
What about for Chris to make one like he made landstudio? Is that out of the question?
Or is there any good editors out there that don''t have licensing issues?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Looking back now I see in my last post, trying to buy the license is kinda impossible isn''t it? Forget what I said

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quote:
Original post by Bruno
Who the hell is Todd?



My guess is he means Todd Hollenshead (is that how its spelt?) of id Software. He''s the CEO or something like that and handles the legal nit and grit.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by CopperCircle

I have been trying to find a 3DS to Q3 BSP converter as that would be a way of making BSP`s without using any of ID`s tools. I have found a 3DS to QuakeI Map converter, has anyone found one for QuakeIII?


The 3DStudio Max to Q3 BSP converted would be the perfect solution. I really hope someone can find that. I''ll go search for a while.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Could someone please explain why you even need to use the Q3 BSP? Is it to have access to the Quake files/tools?

Why not create your own BSP format? This is much better than dealing with ID and all of the license issues.

If you continue to use the Q3 BSP for a commercial release it will bite you in the arse latter on. Especially if you create something good that uses the Q3 BSP format.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Take a look at http://www.planetquake.com/gg/ these guys are using the Q1 engine source to make a legit GPL game. They''re making everything needed to produce game data files etc. With your questions about Q3 you should definitely ask if the QBSP utils are covererd by the same EULA and if they are then you''ll have to write the entire editor yourself but can still use the format. It is actually possible to open a BSP in wordpad to get a general feel for the layout, head for the bottom to find the readable stuff about entities. The BSP format is readily useable by anyone, but you have to use your own software if you wanna make cash out of it.
I think this is perfectly fair, if you want to use the Q3 editing utils ID made for the game then basically you are using their intellectual property to make your own game. Once you get into trying to sell the thing I definitely think your entering territory where you will be forced to get an engine license (which for Q3 will probably be costly).
Just my 2c

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Q3Radiant and the BSP tools are not commercial products. They are byproducts of their engine development. It would seem strange to have to license something that 1) they aren''t selling in the first place 2) they gave all the source code out for.

Somebody should send an email to Todd and find out rather than guessing.

The reason for using BSP is saving time of course. There are free editors and tools available that people already have experience with. Any BSP code I would come up with on my own would be based on their code and ideas anyways.

Chris









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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by ChrisE

Somebody should send an email to Todd and find out rather than guessing.




CEO Todd Hollenshead''s email is toddh@idsoftware.com

Can Chris or someone email and ask? I found the email but I wouldn''t know what to say.

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In a commercial game, are we going to have problems using the Q3 BSP format in general or only have problems if we use ID software tools such as Q3Radient?
Can someone clarify that for me? Thanks

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Do some of the other editors work well with PR?
http://sourceforge.net/projects/quest-ed/
http://www.planetquake.com/Quark/
http://qeradiant.com/gtkradiant.shtml

I don''t want to invest time and effort on any, if they do not.

Irregardless, I''m not happy with this whole topic. (Unless someone mails Todd and we get good news!)

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What are ya'' all worried about? He''s not going to come to your house and kill you. He''s just a regular guy.

I''m gonna email him tonight. I''ll see if he replies.

-Rich

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Here is the email I sent him. I made sure to be vague enough not to point fingers, yet specific enough to yield a response.


>>>>>
I wasn''t sure who to contact about this, so I thought I would try you. I am currently using q3Radiant to make level geometry for a game I am developing. I am NOT using any textures, scripts, or models that are related to quake 3 arena, I am simply using it to create BSP geometry. If I decide to sell this game, would there be any legal issues caused by me using q3radiant to produce the level geometry? If you need more details I would love to answer any questions. Worry not, the game I am designing is in the very early stages so if issues exist it will not cause any problems. Thank you for your time.
>>>>>


Ok, eh?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by PsycoBlade

Here is the email I sent him. I made sure to be vague enough not to point fingers, yet specific enough to yield a response.


>>>>>
I wasn''t sure who to contact about this, so I thought I would try you. I am currently using q3Radiant to make level geometry for a game I am developing. I am NOT using any textures, scripts, or models that are related to quake 3 arena, I am simply using it to create BSP geometry. If I decide to sell this game, would there be any legal issues caused by me using q3radiant to produce the level geometry? If you need more details I would love to answer any questions. Worry not, the game I am designing is in the very early stages so if issues exist it will not cause any problems. Thank you for your time.
>>>>>


Ok, eh?



I hope he replies. Keep us posted if he does. By the way the problem here is specifically with Q3Radient right? We''re not gonna have problems with Q3 BSP in general?

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