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sEntiEnt

Anything else BESIDES RPGs

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I mean come onea story as part of a game is good, having characters in game with, well character is good! But what is with the RPG thing? Its not the beginning and end of all games? I know i''m not that regular on this board but its all I ever see... resist flaming! resist [BANNERS]

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RPG''s provide a sense of accomplishent to the player, more so than other genres can. You develop a character that as far as you know is completely unique. It''s a sense of ownership. MMORPG''s provide this to an even greater extent. Then they get to compare their character''s with others from around the world. Although RPG''s are not the only games that have character creation (Deus Ex comes to mind) RPG''s are the most popular medium. These games are just plain fun to play most of the time. Also most games (at least to me) come to mind as a story. RPG''s are just about the simplest to implement a fluent story-line into. A third point (from a programmer''s point of view)- They''re just plain easy to make.(easier than most othe genres) This make it the perfect game for newbies and the lazy alike
-Just my opinion though-

Use the WriteCoolGame() function
Works every time

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It has actually been mentioned before. I once said "the Game Design board is the closest to an RPG board you will get to see on Gamedev.net". The reason is that there is just plain more to improve and discuss in RPGs, compared to other games. Other types of games are based around an original concept, whereas RPGs tend to lean closer to simulation, and those particular challenges are more open to discussion.
However, I certainly won''t discourage the discussion on other types of games. I think a lot of us here could use the perspective of someone NOT interested in RPGs as far as game design goes.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

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So do I... I believe that any idea can be incorporated by RPG''s, so we need more people to think outside the square (well, ISO Tile ) that we have all been discussing in for the past year so that we can make some inroads on new developments.

Or maybe I am just looking forward to poaching some more ideas

(And this is the closest we are likely to get to an RPG board... Even Dave agrees, so he refused to open an RPG forum... I prefer it here because of all the history with the doc and all )

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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Sorry but I just watched the matrix and its still buzzing around my head but this is the truth:

You need to free your minds and not be restrained by the rules imposed by the games industry

resist [BANNERS]

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Besides, most of the ideas discussed here will work with RPGs, FPSs, or TPSs.

For example:

Discussions on damage affecting your fighting ability
How items work
How and when to fight baddies
Inventory system
Plots
Magic

All these ideas work in pretty much any kind of game that uses them. I have very little interest in RPGs, but the ideas work just the same with first or third person shooters.

E:cb woof!

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quote:
Original post by sEntiEnt

Sorry but I just watched the matrix and its still buzzing around my head but this is the truth:

You need to free your minds and not be restrained by the rules imposed by the games industry




Really? So what would your opinion be of an open ended sci-fi game with no real end goal where you control one person / vehicle / spaceship while managing a group through action, strategy, trade, conversation, and stealth?

Sometimes, you can free your mind so much that no one knows what the hell you''re talking about anymore. The genre ghetto actually is restrictive, but at least it serves to help communication. It also gives you guidelines, which are fine as long as they remain only that.

(Btw, I''m working on an RPeG: Role-Playing empire Game, which because it has no set goal or story should happily make RPG lovers everywhere barf.)



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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Sorry wav... I had to... . And you did ask for it

Anyway, there is always the problem that in an open ended game that the player doesn''t have a goal to strive for. This would seriously impact on the fun element and the player would quickly leave the game... Oh... and

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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Guest Anonymous Poster
More people can post about RPGs since RPGs aren''t a normal genre, they are a bunch of related games that all incorporate a wide variety of thing to talk about. So while I don''t care one bit about story I could post about interface issues. Other genres are for more hardcore and specialized players. While I''m very qualified to talk about RTSs most people here aren''t. On the other hand I don''t know the first thing about sports games and would be useless in any discussion about them. RPGs, well everyone can talk about RPGs, so that''s what gets talked about.

Also as MadKeith indicated RPGs need a lot of work. Other genres such as FPS have undergone some massive improvements in the last couple years and there really isn''t that much to talk about in terms of improvement.

Another reason is that RPGs tend to be single player. Other genres have strong multiplayer communities and that means they have forums with active users knowledgable in the game. So if I want to talk RTS design I head on over to ethermoon and talk with some of the guys there, often the designer will get in on the discussions too. When I used to play SC I used to hang out at a forum that was dedicated to making and testing patches to fix the game, we never did get a patch that worked but we had a lot of quality discussion

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Actually, I disagree with your thing about RPG''s being single player. Mostly people have MMORPGs in mind... This is a MUCH larger community base than any other genre as far as I am aware. Isn''t that a great thing? But having a larger player base or a smaller player base still sets it appart from other genres, so I agree with you there.

Oh, and there is more COMMUNITY in RPG communities in my experience. Long live MMORPGs

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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Guest Anonymous Poster
yes those wretched MMORPGs get a lot of talk, in theory they are a good genre (well set of genres) but all current implementations are horrible. I wouldn''t say that they have much larger communities, I think they are actually about equal or a little larger, it is just that they are newer and so they haven''t had as much of the retirement effect. When games tend to get old people stop playing, maybe moving to a new game maybe just catching up with whatever it was they did before. That stage hasn''t hit MMs yet, maybe it never will since the people trapped in those evil machines seem to be oblivious. It is hard to escape. Hmm better stop now before this turns into a ten page rant about the nature of evil.

But a lot of the RPG talk is single player, since so much of it seems to deal with story and idealized NPC AI, both of which are inherently single player topics.

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I agree with the story part (hence why I am trying to fix up Non-Linear-Events Web program event and story creator to deal with MMO stories and quests) but as for the AI, well, I am of the mind that the more computers you have hooked up to a server, the more computer power you have for controlling NPCs... So why not harness it?

So you were half right, but most of us here tend to talk about Character interactions with NPCs and ALSO players... PKing is one of the big issues that pops up regularly, and it is most definitely NOT single player (Unless you are stupid enough to kill yourself )

Anyway... Enough of this ranting about the inherent evils of current RPG design... It su><0rs and we are trying to do something about it

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.

Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.

If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.

It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.

If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.

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Um... I play fantasy for FUN... So why start saying that it is for the clinically depressed? My sister suffers from depression and she doesn''t even like computers. Hell... My friends are depressed and they don''t play RPGs... I know some of the happiest most stable people who prefer RPGs to playing any other genre. Why not pretend to be someone else for a while and stop being trigger happy in Quake <insert huge number here> or SOF.

RPGs are cool and they rule, so stop getting shitty that a genre is popular with the thinkers.

*dwarfsoft throws cold water on himself*

Yeah! And you stole my friends Nick!

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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Someguy''s post is pretty much flamebait, but I''ll leave it in for a while. Just be careful to refute the points intelligently, and do not resort to name calling.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

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Sorry MKV... I know I did get a bit hot under the collar there... I''m all good now

quote:
Original post by Some Guy
RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.



I don''t play to win. I play to learn. I play to explore. How much undescovered land is there in this world? Fortunately, fantasy allows new places to go and new cultures to see. Ahh.. what a holiday in the Land of Aal

quote:
Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.


Mmmm... good art is always a masterpeice to some and a defilement to others. Broad minded people tend to accept art at face value and as something more deep looking for meaning, whereas the people who believe it is defilement really just look too hard or not at all. Personal preference is fine, but I enjoy seeing the dragon more than the slayer. Funny that I would rather be friends with a dragon than kill it... Does that mean that I am weirder than those who powertrip on Killing it or more normal?

quote:
If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.


Ah, but an RPG is meant to target the deepest depths of our desires. Our wants to descover the undescovered and learn the unlearnable. I would love to be able to light a candle with the blink of an eye, but unfortunately this is just for the realms of fantasy and also for RPGs.

And who is to say that FPSs aren''t targetting those who are screwed in the head? I realise that they don''t cause shootings, nor teach people to shoot, but they are as much aimed at teenagers too. Most games are, because this is the age group that it sells to. It has nothing to do with how weak a person is, it is all up to personal taste.

quote:
It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.


Some games aren''t fantasy. Some are Sci-fi and others are even present day. If you didn''t want to face a game then why are you on this board? We are here to further the development of games as a whole, and RPGs are a major part of the industry (well, there are more of them out there than there are breeding rabbits) so why start discrediting a genre because of your petty delusions that it is preying on deprived kids? I face reality every day. I also play games as well.

quote:
If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.


All games target a part of the psyche... Otherwise they wouldn''t sell. Then you would just have a bit of software that nobody plays. Entertainment is a part of the psyche so in that one sentence you have managed to contradict yourself

Anyway... I have had enough of picking this to pieces, and please no more flamebait. Someone might snap

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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actually I thought of posting something along the lines of what someguy said... although i wouldn´t put it quite like that.

Is there some truth to it? That message-board people are the same guys who play RPGs? Insecure, not happy with their lives, too scared to actually go out an change something for themselves?

not really my intention to fuel the flames, but that question has been on my mind for some time...
I wont go into the psychology sector, as there´s no reasonable argumentation possible that RPGs influence young minds, whilst other games do not.
BTW: someguy, a psychology course does not qualifiy you to make such statements... imo the whole "how computer games influence the minds of kids" debate has been overdone already, a year ago /(the whole violence thing) no paper and no tv channel could do without it... and about all the "real" psychologists i heard said that no link could be conclusively proven...

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quote:
Original post by Wavinator

Really? So what would your opinion be of an open ended sci-fi game with no real end goal where you control one person / vehicle / spaceship while managing a group through action, strategy, trade, conversation, and stealth?

Sometimes, you can free your mind so much that no one knows what the hell you''re talking about anymore...




Sounds like Galileo to me



- Kaijin

The student who is never required to do what he cannot do never does what he can do. - John Stuart Mill

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quote:
Original post by dwarfsoft
there is always the problem that in an open ended game that the player doesn''t have a goal to strive for. This would seriously impact on the fun element and the player would quickly leave the game...


I agree. An open ended game could be fun, but you have to be careful. If the player can''t decide what to do they might get bored. I read a article about Black & White (on gamespot I think) and they mentioned that B&W didn''t have a story for a long time. In the end they added tasks or quests to give the player some guidence. I haven''t played B&W yet, but it sounds like they created a fairly open ended game, but added some structure to keep it fun.



--
Todd
http://www.3dcgi.com/

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quote:
Original post by Some Guy
RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.



That''s a pretty broad statement and totally wrong. Most games, in real life and on the computer, have a goal of winning. I like RPGs, but I also like racing games and I try to win. People play against each other on Quake servers and the goal is to win. I just got home from playing golf where I tried to win. I lost so now I''m depressed. Hmm. I''m depressed and I like RPGs ... maybe you''re right after all.

quote:
Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.


I''d be angry if I had to fight a dragon.

quote:
If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.


So are all artists insecure or do they only hire insecure artists to draw RPG covers? Also, I''m not a teenager, but I still like RPGs.

quote:
It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.


Then why play computer games at all? They''re not real. Maybe because I can''t fight in real life like in the computer or because I can''t afford to buy a McLaren F1 and rent a race track.

quote:
If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.


I imagine most game designers create games that they personally think are fun, so everyone has that goal. And most game designers are not teenagers. At least not game designers that actually sell games.



--
Todd
http://www.3dcgi.com/

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quote:
Original post by Hase
Is there some truth to it? That message-board people are the same guys who play RPGs? Insecure, not happy with their lives, too scared to actually go out an change something for themselves?



Maybe the reason that RPGs are discussed most is because they are the type of people that most often visit this message-board. What traits cause that I don''t know. I don''t think it can be limited to insecurity or not being happy with your life. That''s just too broad.

I visit message boards because it stimulates my imagination and gives me new ideas. You can do this same thing by talking to friends, but message boards allow you to converse with people that experience life in different ways. Friends often live similar lives.



--
Todd
http://www.3dcgi.com/

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quote:
Original post by Some Guy

RPGs are essentially for the insecure and depressed. That''s why the player feels a sense of accomplishment when they win.



Taking this with a grain of obvious salt, as MKV advised, what would be your basis for this judgement?

quote:

Ever take a good look at an ad for a medieval RPG where a raging knight is fighting a dragon? Take a good look at his sword. Ever notice how RPG artists tend to make the sword really "special"? They give the blade extra thick with plenty of niches and cracks, and make the handle all screwed up. Also notice the knight''s facial expression: very, very angry. It never fails.


If you told me that with the scantily clad babe casting spells and the great, rippling muscles of the barbarian (alway Euro, btw) that they were appealing the teenager''s hormones, I''d believe you. But this doesn''t wash. It''s the hero myth, nothing more.

quote:

If you''ve ever taken a course in Psychology, you''d see that that derives from the artist''s insecurity and is meant to intice the possible player who sees it by targetting his insecurity. An RPG is meant to target every nook and cranny of the depressed minds of teenagers.


BS unless you back it up with something.

quote:

It is better to FACE reality rather than to face fantasy. Reality is all around you, and fantasy is just a psychological interpretation of reality. Face the latter, and you''ll only be facing what you THINK is real and not what IS real.


Nothing is real, depending on your school of thought. Reality is a matter of agreement.

Why, btw, do we have fiction? cRPGs are one of the better analogs to fiction that computers have. Read a good book lately? Seen any good movies? Escaping reality, eh?

Imagination actually is the greatest evolutionary adaptation the human mind has ever developed. Imagination can reduce stress, show you possibilities you''d never dreamed of, provide a safe environment to test out ideas, and generally be very pleasurable.

Given that RPGs aren''t a habit forming substance which will cause kids to break out the 12 guage and jack little old ladies, I don''t see the problem.


quote:

If you ask me, it''s better to make games that are just fun, and not games that target the young, human psyche. But that''s just me.


You''re gonna have to back this up with something dude. Otherwise it''s just hit and run.




--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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I have to agree with you rpg''s are good for stories and such but they are not the only way to pass a message. One game that I love is metal gear solid it has and extremely emotional story yet still has alot of action game play. I remember when maryl(cant remember how to spell it) got shot endless times by sniper wolf, it struck my like lightning I couldnt believe she was going to die and if you get the ending where she dies and snake finds out and yells out in anger at the loss of his friend (maybe more). That was one of the best action games I have ever played and it had a good story like any rpg.
I think the reason why people like rpg''s so much more is because the creators spend alot more time on the storyline but I think if developers where to concentrate on story in action games alot more people would find them as good as rpg''s.

OoMMMoO

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Guest Anonymous Poster
"well, I am of the mind that the more computers you have hooked up to a server, the more computer power you have for controlling NPCs... So why not harness it?"

well I guess it depends on where you draw the line between single player and multiplayer. MMORPGs are sort of in between. On the one hand there are other players in the game with you, on the other hand they are not as important the the NPCs (I''m counting the monsters as NPCs). The only one I''ve played is EQ, I assume the others are sort of along the same lines otherwise they wouldn''t be in the same genre. Anyway, in EQ which would change the game more: taking out all the other players or taking out all the monsters? That''s why I consider EQ to be about 2/3 single player and 1/3 multiplayer. I think once an RPG goes all multiplayer it can''t really be considered an RPG anymore. Once you cut out all the monsters what are you fighting? You''d probably end up with something like Counter-Strike

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Which is why I didn''t say to cut out the monsters. There should always be a goal to be achieved. That is what makes a game a game, or at least a game without a goal isn''t a game IMO.

I count NPCs as monsters as well, but my NPCs can fight better than any Diablo monster, because these creatures actually have their own skills at fighting and so you shouldn''t just wade through when you are surrounded, you should die (well, get captured at least ).

MMORPGs are still RPGs as long as they contain the same elements that an RPG has, but with the added bonus of having more players there

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins in the GDCorner niche

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