Sign in to follow this  

What do you think the drawbacks of this idea are?

This topic is 3732 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

Permadeath, Its the much hated idea for MMO's the reasons are numerous. Basically it boils down to nobody wants to risk losing something they have put so much time into, only to have to start back over at square 1. Today's MMO's are not designed where permadeath would be possible or acceptable. In order to institute a permadeath system that would not turn the playerbase away, you have to have a major shift in the fundamentals of your MMO. My concept is one that removes the major motivation of RPG's: Long grinds to advance your characters skills and stats. In my hypothetical MMO a player's character would reach thier maximum potential at around 10 hours of game time. When a player dies, thier character dies. They make a new character, and boom in ten hours they are back at MAX potential. Instead of character skill/trait etc advancement the game revolves around reputation, contacts, and know how. Players complete missions/quests given out. In order to get the more difficult missions you have to raise your reputation. However the more difficult missions require more planning, better exectuion, and involve a much higher risk of dying. Staying alive means bragging rights, which gets you more reputation and contacts. The game would end up being more of an action RPG rather than your standard MMO. No world details are given due to the fact that the concept is hypothetical and not in works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know that personally I would get frustrated. I'm the type of guy that saves a game every 5 minutes in case something happens so I don't have to redo everything. If I was constantly worried that my character would get killed everytime he tried something new I probably wouldn't do anything, like play the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the biggest disadvantage with this is that you havn't eliminated the grind, you have merely transferred it. While you may max out your level in 10 hours, you essentially make the rest what is referred to as a rep grind. And as you players grind rep, what incentives are you going to give them for these more dangerous missions?

The greatest incentive here would be better gear. So, as the missions get harder and harder, chances for increasingly strong gear become higher, so essentially you've created the grind again. For while you may reach your maximum level in 10 hours, it'll take you a lot longer to reach the same character strength you reached before, so essentially you havn't solved any problem here, you've created exactly the same frustration that would be present if you killed off someones level 70 in world of warcraft.

also, what does a player do when they've maxed out their rep, when they get so hardcore they join a 'raid-guild'?

exactly the same as what happens in every other MMORPG, either they quit playing, make a new character, or kill time waiting for the next patch/expansion which has better gear, and new areas to go to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What we have to realise is that game are played for FUN. What we also have to realize is that FUN in the game is proportional to length of play, and length of play is proportional to our earnings.

This is where we jump in to the real world, Mr. Anderson. MMORPG games, or any other games except indie garage projects are made for money, sales, fame, fortune, not for higher values like artistic expression. Sure, you can realize yourself artistically, but you need to make the game FUN at the same point.

Now, let's try to see what exactly is FUN for players.
Fun is running around and killing stuff.
Fun is crafting items and selling them.
Fun is talking with other player.
Fun is NOT dying.

Players are caused major grief by any kind of death they incur. PvP, PvE, whatever. In games like wow, this means minimal repair cost, no gear, skill, or whatever loss. Only a few minutes of time.
This alone can drive people away from the game, or get them pissed enough to ticket a GM because they cannot continue their shallow gameplay because of some other player.

Let's look at mother of MMO games, Ultima online. Everything was fine and dandy, pvp system, hardcore and whatnot. But numbers started to dwindle, complaints started to pour in and they introduced felucca where no one could be attacked without consent. There was a reason.

Take a look at world's most hardcore PvP MMO out there - Eve online. Even with superb (for its time) graphics, and very immersive world, the game reached 150k customers after 4 years of existence on the market *as the prime position in its genre*, only because death is so painful in eve, and you loose everything you had - EXCEPT THE CHARACTER.

Now let's try to put permadeath into equation here somewhere. Who would pay you for a game where he has to start over every time he dies?
Sure, you can level up pretty fast and start again. But that's 10 hours of pointless grind where you can die AGAIN. That's 10 hours from player's life he won't get back, and he will surely not appreciate that after the 3rd time or so.
In any type of game players will not accept perma death, unless its marginal. It's fun to play ADOM every now and then, but it's just that *every now and then*, no one will pay a subscription for that type of gameplay.

The only working permadeath to date was .. Quake. You die, you respawn, collect all the weapons again and jump into the fray. The whole process takes about a minute and gives the assailant a breather to reload the shotgun.

Otherwise, it might be a good topic for theoretic studies, or some private ultima online shard for those 20 hardcore roleplayers.
As a mainstream mmo 'feature' it just won't work.

Sorry for being condescending, but I think it's important to face the reality sometimes ;-) No hard feelings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To throw in another angle...

Don't ignore the RP populations, they often get connected to their characters, and would be very, very unhappy to lose the social connections associated with it. Permadeath is bad for all four gamer types.

What would permadeath ADD to a game? and is it worth it for what it adds?

It adds a sense of suspense and adreneline when fighting, that is all. This can be added in many other ways besides permadeath.

I say, don't do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
what I would do for example would be to have tokens for bosses, and these tokens would be destroyed when you die, so the more tokens you have the more hardcore you are, and the more you have achieved without dying, this adds a sense of prestige, and gives the more talented players bragging rights.

Tokens could be anything from scars, to jewelerry, to even tattoos or other skin markings.

This I think would achieve the sense of bragging rights, without death leading to greater loss than these. And in terms of your idea to eliminate the grind, it's virtually impossible to do, and I would focus on trying to find a way to make the grind enjoyable, not eliminating it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think you could ever implement perma-death in the most common interpretation of what "MMORPG" means, i.e. a progressive stat based game with a persistent world. The fear of and grief produced by losing stats and/or equipment means that the progressive elements need to be kept to a minimum, at which point you are on the boundary between being classed as an RPG and being classed as an action or adventure game with RPG-elements.

That said, I think there is potential in milder RPG-elements for multiplayer, so long as it is thought of as an advancement from an action/adventure/FPS/RTS game rather than as a depleted RPG. In other words you should take an existing non-RPG multiplayer format, such as an FPS, and add a few RPG-like elements, rather than starting with an MMO and taking the RPG out (some might consider Counter Strike for instance to be an FPS with RPG elements; it is on the right lines at least). Once you have this, you can have both progression and permadeath in some kind of tournament system. Say teams play a league or knockout tournament against each other - at the end of each game you can award money and experience, depending on how each player has performed, with which they can upgrade equipment and stats. This way you gain an element of progression and persistence linking individual games together, but the grief from losing what you've earned is not so great since the stats would all be reset at the end of the tournament anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic is 3732 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this