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Khrob

CHALLENGE!

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Who''s up for The Challenge 2001? Doom3 engine in a week gave me the idea. We provide: Some detailed world data Some detailed model data (geometry & animation) Some cool sounds The data is placed open for public access, and all contestants are given two weeks to come up with the best engine to display this data as they can. Software/OpenGL/DirectX/Other all welcome. What the idea needs now is interest and some cool prizes. Some rules would need to be in place, but on the whole, contestants should have free reign to do what they like to preprocess the data. Judging could either be on a benchmark system, or by peer (every contestant gets two votes, or whatever) So who''s up for international fame, boundless fortune and endless appreciation from the gender of your choice??!! _________________________________ I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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Hell yeah!.... I''m up for it....

*[shameless plug]
I''ve just finished adding DYNAMIC PER-PIXEL LIGHTING into my game engine.... so I have quake3 maps.... with fully dynamic per-pixel lighting!. hehehe.... starting to look like the Doom 3 engine ( albeit, about 10 times worse, but it looks better than the q3 one hehehe... amazing what the right lighting can do for ya ).
[/shameless plug] *


So sure..... I''m up for it.... have exams at the moment, so I might not even finish a project engine for it, but it''d be fun to try....

what data formats were u thinking of???


~Cobra~

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I was thinking just keeping it down to either polygon data, or plane data (a la WorldCraft)

For the models - any suggestions?

And the timeframe would not be until later in the year - when does everyone have holidays?



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I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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Sounds fucking assom but umm what format is the data going to be in?
world data=BSP,or what
Sound=??
Objects=??

and if there not in a format that we like will there be others??

i can start on this when ever

Added This
do we hafto start for nothing or can wee use Engins we have alraedy done/started??

-VBLimits
Sorry about the Spelling..


Edited by - VBlimits on April 26, 2001 12:22:37 AM

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I would like the polygon data as simple as possible (no bsp''s) so people can do whatever clever tricks they want to it.

Not sure about the model formats, since we''re trying to out-id id, some detailed format? Or would people be happier with high-res (geometry res) .md3''s?

Sound - just keep as a wav.

A ''team'' system might be a good idea, so you dont have to reinvent every wheel.

I think the goal would be impractical without the use of your own previously made things.

I guess the line there would be that everything you use must be in the public domain, as all the code would be at the conclusion of the project.

I''ll try to get a page going with some info on it.

We should get Tim Sweeney and John Carmack to judge it!!


So:

World: Raw polygons with some surface info (UV coords, texture)
Textures: .tga
Sounds: .wav
Models: .md3

Behaviour constraints:

Cant walk through walls/objects.

So... teams anyone?






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I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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Unbelievably good idea. Unfortunately, as a student, I am being pummeled by 3 CS classes at the moment. I end late, due to the lovely quarter system, so am pretty much unavailable until mid-late June. Also, while I am a programmer, I am only an aspiring game programmer, so I doubt I would be able to compete well. I am only posting to tell you that others probably have classes to, but summer is an ideal time for college / highschool / preschool students who frequent this site. Oh yeah, have a contest in September too, right before I start again. I''ll be confident by then.

--OctDev

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Right.... I know we aren''t starting till later this year, but I''ve already started building an MD3 loader... hopefully by the time we get really going on this project I''ll already have it done... should save some time.

~Cobra~

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How about .ogg for the music format. It''s a lot smaller than .wav, and it isn''t bound by those nasty patent things that mp3 has. And besides, I wanna see a game that plays oggs

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I''m glad people are interested in this. It''s a great challenge!

I''d also like to see a pure polygon data set for the level (no brushes, no planes, no BSPs). How will this data be created? Wouldn''t extracting polygons from .MAP files produce a lot of useless polys.

I''m still a big fan of the MD2 model format personally.

I''m looking forward to your site for this Khrob.

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How about you guys come up with your own file format, and you have one or two months to make a level/model editor to use for your entry.

Also the reason the Q3 and Unreal engines were worth so much is because they are modifiable. If they weren''t, no one would buy them to use in a game. I think thats the reason why they are so popular is because they can be easily modified.

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I think writing a level editor is asking too much really!!

The whole point of this exercise is to compare engine technology and techniques rather than to write a new commercial engine. Everyone should use the same test data.

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Is there a version of ''the hedgehog song'' in .ogg format?!

I like the idea of making our own format for the models. Since I work essentially in MAX, it would be derived from that, but simple data I think... maybe a set of vertices, a set of faces, weights and bones, and some premade animations. what do ppl think?

I think the timing will be quite important. I''d love to see this open to as many of us as possible, and I''d also love to see some really good quality stuff, so I want everyone to have a decent prep time, then two weeks of absolute coding blitz!

I was also thinking a requirement may be to have a 200 word (or thereabouts) explanation of your engine, for the betterment of all coder-kind... yes? no?

How''s july for everyone? It suit''s Australian school/uni... how about the northern hemisphere?




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I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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Good idea! Count me in...

the 3d file format should be in one that is EASY to use like .x or dxf...something WELL documented...hope this actually happens because I would like to try out my skills

-----------------------------------------------------------
"If I wanted to hear the pitter patter of little feet I would put shoes on my cat"

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PLATFORM....

Must run on a particular setup?

I dont want to exclude anyone, but doing a version for a C64 may proclude testing by the judges...

Wintel System
OpenGL/DX/Software

That really shouldn''t proclude anyone would it?

We could have divisions - hw tnl/ software only etc...

thoughts?



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I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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Guest Anonymous Poster
..erm, plain old poly data for map files? Beating the DOOM 3 engine? Theres gonna be thousands of polys, and what about curves? If you''re expecting to write a BSP/Octree/PVS compiler and the people downloading the engines want to wait a day while their PC processes raw poly data, then fine.

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John''s said the data comes out of plain text .map files, and is all processed at runtime.

That was in the mp3''s of his QuakeCon talk. I dont know how current it is.

But the curves thing is an interesting point - bezier patches people?

And so what if it takes all day? You''ve got 14! The point is to try out algos and preprocessing stuff that HASN''T been done.



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I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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well, you could make the entire world with bezier patches (my engine does, but it doesn''t work worth crap, for other reasons). Patches are rather easy to work with once you get used to them. Limit the world to a file filled with lines of 16 digits... bicubic bezier patches sound like enough for everyone?

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Hi all


This is a good idea but it has to be fair. I don’t really know how it can be made fair for everyone. Don’t get me wrong I am not opposed to the idea, but there are a lot of people that frequent this board that are already developing 3D engines. So there will be probably an equally large amount of people that are not and will therefor be playing catch up to the people that have a good head start. The reason that the OpenGL challenges work is because, the demos that people submit are that demos and only take a week to develop so there is a level playing field for everyone.

I Do really like this idea and if it does come off I will try very hard to submit an OpenGL engine (Which is coming along nicely) and my software engine (Which is coming along nicely, Must spend some more time on that one!)

For the 3D Graphics Engine challenge, I would say that it would be fair to use,

Sound – Wav
Models – MD3
Level - Raw Polygon Data with Material Data (so we all can do what ever we want)

O And
Coding Style – Like Hell


I Hope This Is BIG,


3DG

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Well, I''m running a Celery 450, but I can get my hands on a couple of >ghz machines....

I''m looking into someone providing a complete Ninja Bastard system (P3/GeForce3(pleasepleaseplease!)) as a prize for this thing, but i think the lower the spec, the better...

Baseline:

Celeron 450
TNT or better.

People should not be penalised for higher requirements (hardware tnl)

It depends on the judging system.

1) PEER JUDGEMENT - All entrants get to vote on the other entries, most popular engine wins.

2) JUDGING PANEL - A judging panel of prominent people (NeHe, Kurt Miller etc)

3) LEGEND JUDGING PANEL - If we ask John Carmack and Tim Sweeney VERY nicely, and if their schedules allow, then we can have the gods of coding to judge it! (And Saxs Persson, and Ken Perlin and ...)

Who wants what?





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I used to be indecisive. Now I''m not so sure...

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I''d say (3). I would totally love to have John Carmack, Tim, or some other coding legend rate my work... then u really know where u stand skill-wise.

If it can''t be done, because they''re too busy or just not willing, then I''d say (2), because Nehe, Kurt, and others are also prominent programmers, so they''ll look at it from a skill-based level, as to how hard it was to code, and how well the coder has pulled it off.


Just my 2 pence worth.

~Cobra~

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WITH REGARDS TO THE LEVEL FORMAT.


I think it should be like this.

U choose and editor, q3radiant or Worldcraft, and u produce a map in bsp format, and raw .map format.
Then the coder can choose which one they want to use. This way we can make use of any BSP coding skills we may have, and we will also be able to produce more efficient engines, with the use of bezier patches e.t.c and any other effects we want to add.

This way we are all loading the same map, as u made it, but we have a choice of raw or bsp format to load in.


Anyway... once again, just my 2 pence worth.

~Cobra~

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I still think just a pure polygon data is best. I think it is important to use the benchmark data set rather than your own levels.

Using WC/QER etc for BSPs, .maps etc would just produce another load of Quake clones. The point of this excercise is to really inovate and try new ideas.

How would lighting be specified in the level data?

(Sorry if I sound like a bit of an arse Cobra)

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I tend to agree with BLZbub on this one. It may make it harder, but the whole point is it''s a CHALLENGE!

Besides - your bsp''s wont be too much use with the outdoor areas! *evil grin*

As for lighting...

Position
Direction (or omni)
Near/Far attenuation

Also considering adding some simple ''object'' script, so that the world isn''t static.

If it''s well documented, what do people think of this? (you would have to write the interpreter) It would be simple - mainly for things like doors...

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