Quote:
If you ever find yourself in that position, quit immediately, because that studio will shortly be going down in a ball of fire more spectacular than anything Romero could mastermind.
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The Game Industry: Getting a Job
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Quote:Original post by nsmadsen
What I would concern myself with, as someone wanting to get into this industry is:
1) What skills do I need to do the job I want?
2) What other skills can I also learn to make myself more marketable.
3) Compare your demo reel (or portfolio) to professional standards in the industry. Does it match up or fall short?
4) Does the demo reel show a variety of styles, approaches and skills? If not, then you need to re-work it so it does. Versatility is very attractive.
5) Do you have anything that will help you stand out in the crowd of other applicants- even there are many equally or more talented that you? This can be where you studied, or a special skill set, etc.
After a while the job search came down to two people: me and this other guy. I learned later that I got the job because:
1) I worked fast. The manager gave both of us a trial project to score completely. He gave us one week to try two runs at it. I got my done in two days. This impressed the crew. The other worked much slower.
2) I looked presentable and professional. The team told me (after having worked there for a while) that the other guy dressed very poorly for his interviews and actually smelled really bad. "Like old cheese" was an actual quote. Remember, the company is hiring you for the total package, and nobody wants to work next to a stinky person. It isn't fun and it makes the company look sloppy and unprofessional.
3) I was friendly. The other guy, on top of everything else, wasn't open and friendly with the crew. My company, as most, really strives to build teams that get along great. My team (which is about 6 people in total) hang out all of the time. We really enjoy each other's company and this makes us work better.
4) I was honest. In the interview, my boss asked me if I could do a certain skill and I said "no, but I'll learn it." I didn't try and BS him and he said he really liked that I was comfortable enough to say "I don't know everything, but will learn what you need me to." Some people think you have to be super employee and know everything single facet to land a job. This is not true. Nobody is perfect and the company just wants to know they're hiring someone that can perform most of the needed skills and is open minded enough to learn the others well and FAST.
This is getting long so I'll wrap up: My main point is a degree isn't everything and nor is just having the ability to do certain skills. Approach hiring as if you were making the decision. When prepping for a job make sure everything you present is a positive, and that you're open and eager enough to better yourself for the betterment of the company.
I hope that gives you some more ideas. It's worked for me at least! :)
Nathan
Thanks a lot for the tips, Nathan! Now I know my mistakes at my first interview, I guess I wasn't friendly enough since my nerves struck me really hard :(.
P.S: NanoH, I have pmed you, please check your inbox, thanks :)
A really great discussion has been set into motion here. Kudos to you NanoH for getting it started, and to everyone else having asked and answered valid questions. It's been a very enjoyable read.
Now, I feel like there's been some repetitions lately though. One thing in perticular that is nailed into my mind now is:
- As always, a first impression can be everything. That goes for interviews, portfolios, resumés, first time at the job, you name it.
- Education is never negative, but it's not always a big plus. Most importantly, once you've got the employer's attention, what you want to do is illustrate in the best (yet maybe shortest) manner possible that you are ragingly experienced and competent, but not necessarily educated. To me, a degree is more like one of many ways of proving your competence, but a very good one at that.
Now, here's some things just at the back of my head that I figured I'd bring into the light:
- "Never give up" is a very nice saying, but it will get you further and further down for every new try you make if you retry every time with the very same approach. A company won't suddenly hire you after your 3rd try if you've kept sending them basically the same application. For every time you try again, you should have at least done something different to your application that is of some significance. It could be such as:
- Rewriting just the beginning of your application, going for a better first impression.
- Having added more work to your portfolio, preferrably something that is relevant to the game(s) the company is making.
- If the company rejected your application with a comment, like "your age got us worried" or "you say you can animate but there are no examples of animated models", then you have to address these issues, and when you resend your application, the reader should know as soon as possible that these issues has been taken into account.
-And as mentioned here already, few can afford to be picky when applying for a job. An excellent example of this is Joel Bylos working as Quest Designer for Age of Conan, the most anticipated online MMO to date.
Hm, I was kinda hoping to make a more proper short-listing of the important points that have been brought up (those who don't have the time/strength to read through these posts word by word still deserve to benefit some from it...) as well as list some more tips, but time is catching up with me. So well, keep the conversation flowing guys. I for one will be sure to regularly check into this thread.
Now, I feel like there's been some repetitions lately though. One thing in perticular that is nailed into my mind now is:
- As always, a first impression can be everything. That goes for interviews, portfolios, resumés, first time at the job, you name it.
- Education is never negative, but it's not always a big plus. Most importantly, once you've got the employer's attention, what you want to do is illustrate in the best (yet maybe shortest) manner possible that you are ragingly experienced and competent, but not necessarily educated. To me, a degree is more like one of many ways of proving your competence, but a very good one at that.
Now, here's some things just at the back of my head that I figured I'd bring into the light:
- "Never give up" is a very nice saying, but it will get you further and further down for every new try you make if you retry every time with the very same approach. A company won't suddenly hire you after your 3rd try if you've kept sending them basically the same application. For every time you try again, you should have at least done something different to your application that is of some significance. It could be such as:
- Rewriting just the beginning of your application, going for a better first impression.
- Having added more work to your portfolio, preferrably something that is relevant to the game(s) the company is making.
- If the company rejected your application with a comment, like "your age got us worried" or "you say you can animate but there are no examples of animated models", then you have to address these issues, and when you resend your application, the reader should know as soon as possible that these issues has been taken into account.
-And as mentioned here already, few can afford to be picky when applying for a job. An excellent example of this is Joel Bylos working as Quest Designer for Age of Conan, the most anticipated online MMO to date.
Quote:MMORPG.com:- This is an excellent example of how you can easily renew yourself, by simply going for a different position. Maybe you find it a bit tedious work, maybe you feel that your talents aren't used to their fullest, but come on, it's all about getting that foot in the door right? Well, if you settle with a job you really despise, you'll soon find yourself lying on the ground because your foot got completely smashed when the door slammed shut...
What was your first job in games? What other games have you worked on?
Joel Bylos:
Dare I admit that Conan is my first? I made a lot of modules for NWN back in the day, and I've also written several short films and stories, but Conan is my first foray into the world of professional game design.
MMORPG.com:
What is your job at Funcom? How did you get your foot in the door?
Joel Bylos:
My job is Quest Design which covers both design and implementation of quests. In addition to that I write dialogue, which is an absolute pleasure.
I got my foot in the door by being persistent and not giving up on my career choice. My first application to Funcom didn't even net me an interview (it was for the position of Item Designer). My second application got me an interview and, eventually, the job.
I think this goes to show that if people are truly passionate about what they do, there is a place for them in this industry.
Hm, I was kinda hoping to make a more proper short-listing of the important points that have been brought up (those who don't have the time/strength to read through these posts word by word still deserve to benefit some from it...) as well as list some more tips, but time is catching up with me. So well, keep the conversation flowing guys. I for one will be sure to regularly check into this thread.
Thank you for your answer. I think that it is more important what a person is capable of and not where and how he studied... I would prefer teaching myself than to go to a university, because the courses on programming in Lithuania aren't any good. What if I can't risk to fly over the Atlantic sea for an interview? Or is this step really mandatory? If so then I guess I will have to test my luck...
[Edited by - Giedrius on October 13, 2007 3:25:46 PM]
[Edited by - Giedrius on October 13, 2007 3:25:46 PM]
Thanks for the answers, one more though. For those of us that are looking for 'entry-level' jobs, whats the best resource out there for finding those jobs? I've been to plenty of developer websites and not many list that they are entry-level and when your sending out portfolios the costs add up.
I have some questions for you.
I've been programming for quite awhile, and have only started programming games since last year maybe a little more than that; however, I have made 3 games in java, 2 games in C++ and am currently working on 1 2D game using SDL, and am starting my lessons on OpenGL through my past time.
I'm trying to build my portfolio up to what will be in between impressive, or enough to get hired. Here is what I'm doing to hopefully make this successful.
First, I know school is important, and in school I know the important classes, or at least what I believe would be important in Game Development since I am wanting to be a Game Developer is Mathematics, Science, and Computer Science related classes.
So, I am currently finishing my A.S. Degree starting my Bachelors degree next August at my State University which is great for Computer Science. Right now if I was to go to my University (I'm at a local community college right now) My math professors would tell me I would either receive a minor in Mathematics once I accepted to my State University, or be a couple of classes shy of receiving a minor in Mathematics. However, it is sad that my community college has no good programming courses to attend. The only classes they offer is Java which I completed and exempted from through an AP class in high school, and Visual Basic which I'm thinking about taking next semester just to get an 'A' on the report card.
So not having the benefit of having rewarding, rigorous computer science courses at my local community college I have been teaching myself programming languages especially but not just including for game development. I have taught myself C++/C#, Visual Basic, and continue to work here and there in Java.
I have made many applications in VB, Java, and a couple of games in Flash, Java, and C++
My question is am I on the right path to being a game developer after my B.S. degree, or do I have to go further and receive a Masters, PhD in computer science and how far must I go in Mathematics not that it would bother me at all.
What are the likely hood of being hired as a game developer right out of college.
Oh, and I'm also been trying to get an internship at various software companies just to have it on my application/resume when I go do the applying fiasco.
BTW when should I start applying to companies?
Thanks, and sorry that is a little long
I've been programming for quite awhile, and have only started programming games since last year maybe a little more than that; however, I have made 3 games in java, 2 games in C++ and am currently working on 1 2D game using SDL, and am starting my lessons on OpenGL through my past time.
I'm trying to build my portfolio up to what will be in between impressive, or enough to get hired. Here is what I'm doing to hopefully make this successful.
First, I know school is important, and in school I know the important classes, or at least what I believe would be important in Game Development since I am wanting to be a Game Developer is Mathematics, Science, and Computer Science related classes.
So, I am currently finishing my A.S. Degree starting my Bachelors degree next August at my State University which is great for Computer Science. Right now if I was to go to my University (I'm at a local community college right now) My math professors would tell me I would either receive a minor in Mathematics once I accepted to my State University, or be a couple of classes shy of receiving a minor in Mathematics. However, it is sad that my community college has no good programming courses to attend. The only classes they offer is Java which I completed and exempted from through an AP class in high school, and Visual Basic which I'm thinking about taking next semester just to get an 'A' on the report card.
So not having the benefit of having rewarding, rigorous computer science courses at my local community college I have been teaching myself programming languages especially but not just including for game development. I have taught myself C++/C#, Visual Basic, and continue to work here and there in Java.
I have made many applications in VB, Java, and a couple of games in Flash, Java, and C++
My question is am I on the right path to being a game developer after my B.S. degree, or do I have to go further and receive a Masters, PhD in computer science and how far must I go in Mathematics not that it would bother me at all.
What are the likely hood of being hired as a game developer right out of college.
Oh, and I'm also been trying to get an internship at various software companies just to have it on my application/resume when I go do the applying fiasco.
BTW when should I start applying to companies?
Thanks, and sorry that is a little long
3D math is critical to know for games. 3D math is also called linear algebra, and it's basically matrices, vectors, and the billion and one things you can do with them. To help you out, I posted on another forum some information targeted at coders wanting to get into the industry. There's also some more general info there that others can benefit from. Check it out here.
Quote:Original post by Giedrius
What if I can't risk to fly over the Atlantic sea for an interview? Or is this step really mandatory? If so then I guess I will have to test my luck...
If you don`t mind spending couple hundreds USD just to get to an interview (and still face a 5:1 ratio of not being the one they choose), that`s OK. Just be prepared that after 2 or 3 interviews you will be a little bit uncomfortable that you spent over 1000 USD and got nothing in return (except first-hand interview experience which sounds great at first, but actually not later).
If the company is any decent, they will at least pay you 50% of the flight tickets. Usually the company is in a town which is far from the nearest airport, so you need to take a bus there - which costs a lot - not because of the bus tickets, but your time and in the end you usually need at least 1 or 2 nights in hotel, spend up to 30 hrs at airports (which are damn expensive to stay at too).
So in the end you might spend up to 3 times as much as the flight ticket costs.
That`s the reason I always smile when company says they offer an exceptional bonus - i.e. 50% of plane ticket for interviewees, when you actually spend much more just getting there and staying there. Unless of course, you fly half of the globe.
If you have the opportunity to fly back home from the interview the same day, definitely go for it. But if you need to take vacation for 3-4 days from your current work, because it takes 1.5 days to get there and back to airport, forget it unless it`s a senior position and you already know your salary range in advance (spending 300-500 USD just to find out that the salary is low is a funny idea, indeed ;-) )
In which case, you probably already have this experience anyway...
Thank you for your reply. I still have to finish studying so I won't do any traveling for a while. I will probably even have to get a job in my country first since the interviews seem to cost a lot. But I would really prefer working in some decent game studio. There currently aren't any in my country. Or maybe I should attempt to start one? That would be an even more risky option.
Quote:Original post by GiedriusThat doesn`t matter. What`s important is that you shall keep it in mind and act accordingly after you finish your studies.
I still have to finish studying so I won't do any traveling for a while.
Quote:Original post by GiedriusYes they do especially if you have to take 2-3 flights to get there.
I will probably even have to get a job in my country first since the interviews seem to cost a lot.
Having a job that pays the bills is a great way to make sure you won`t have to accept bad offers and you won`t be pressed to go for huge compromises and most probably you shall be able to select just the offers that are really rewarding - thus you won`t hurry to spend money on your very first interview - because you already have a job so you aren`t under pressure.
Quote:Original post by GiedriusA much better choice would be to use the free time you currently have during your studies and create a game or two and sell them as shareware. This would also give you a huge advantage on your resume. Obviously you`d gain huge experience as well.
But I would really prefer working in some decent game studio. There currently aren't any in my country. Or maybe I should attempt to start one? That would be an even more risky option.
I also have another idea for you that seems to be working for many people, but it may be a little bit expensive. Earn enough money in your first job so that you can afford to stay in UK (where most of gamedev companies are) for 2-3 months and mention at your CV that you`re local (otherwise they`ll just throw your CV since you`re not local and they aren`t willing to pay for trips for non-senior positions). Thus you`ll be able to travel cheaply to interviews. Maybe take a flipping-burger job in the meantime. You`ll get more interview invitations this way.
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