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alihelmy

HowTo Develop for PS3

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alihelmy    127
Hey mates, Just a simple question, and if it is incredibly stupid i apologise before hand... so, how does one create games for the ps3? i mean, i got one, so what if i wanted to create a simple tetris game by myself? i dont care about any licensing and i wouldnt ever sell it or anything, just wondering... i mean, i know the languages used (C) and the shaders and OpenGL, etc... but what SDK, or where are the APIs or the docs or anything? and on the second hand, what is it like if it were to be professionally?

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Promit    13246
Developers get developer kits, which are special hardware, software, libraries, documentation, and libraries that allow development. When they're done, they create a gold build that is then cryptographically signed by keys provided by the console maker (Sony, MS, Nintendo) and then mastered onto pressed discs. Those discs will play in regular retail consoles. Games that are in development cannot run on regular retail consoles.

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alihelmy    127
mmm... i seee... but how about the XNA then for the Xbox360, i know this is a bit off topic but... if the XNA is available, free and downloadable online into VS, then i should be able to make my own games on the Xbox360, right?

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OrangyTang    1298
Quote:
Original post by Promit
You can't, unless you're willing to settle for the crippled linux environment that offers no access to the GPU or any of the SPUs.

IIRC PS3 linux does let you access some (not all) SPUs and run your own code on them. No GPU access does rather cripple the whole thing though. [sad]

alihelmy: To run your own XNA stuff on your 360 you need to fork out for a "Creators Club" license, which IIRC clocks in at $99 a year. Anyone who wants to play your game has to fork out too.

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alihelmy    127
so, the verdict is, Xbox360, is doable but costs 99$ a year, and PS3 is not doable (because i read somewhere on gamesutra.com that the dev kit is 10250USD!) unless u wanna do it on linux...

if i understand correctly, this means ill install Linux on the ps3 and then dev games for linux on the ps3, and not ps3 directly?

and what do u mean by limiting access to the G(graphical?)PU? does that mean i cant write opengl code or... wat?

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OrangyTang    1298
Quote:
Original post by alihelmy
if i understand correctly, this means ill install Linux on the ps3 and then dev games for linux on the ps3, and not ps3 directly?

Yes. IMHO you might as well just stick to pc development.

Quote:
and what do u mean by limiting access to the G(graphical?)PU? does that mean i cant write opengl code or... wat?

You don't get any access to the GPU, which means that all drawing has to be done manually, and no hardware accelerated OpenGL.

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NickGravelyn    855
Quote:
Original post by alihelmy
so, the verdict is, Xbox360, is doable but costs 99$ a year, and PS3 is not doable (because i read somewhere on gamesutra.com that the dev kit is 10250USD!) unless u wanna do it on linux...


Minor comment here, that quote for the dev kit is irrelevant in any case. You are not a registered developer with Sony so they will not sell you a dev-kit for any price. Until you are a registered developer, all you have with PS3 is Linux which, as others have said, is crippled.

XNA is great. It's fun to run games on the Xbox 360. $99 sounds expensive, but when you think about it spread over a year, it's not so bad. That's less than the cost of two next-gen (PS3 or Xbox 360) games. True that currently anyone who wants to play your game will also have to buy the Creator's Club subscription, but the guys at Microsoft have said they are working hard to create a better way (with hopefully much lower cost) for end-user distribution.

The best part of XNA is that you can download it for free for Windows and start playing with it today. If you don't like it, you don't even have to spend money. Check out http://creators.xna.com for all the download information, samples, and other helpful stuff.

Quote:
Original post by sanman
Why have these limitations/arrangements been created?

Why not just let developers develop as they please to?


If you could do full PS3 development in Linux on a retail PS3, how would Sony be able to sell dev-kits to developers? Also how would you stop people from just making/selling/distributing games for download for Linux on PS3 where Sony would make no money on royalties?

As for XNA, Microsoft has to fund the XNA department somehow. It's well known that the Xbox division of Microsoft has not profited much considering its cost. So they have to charge developers to use XNA on Xbox 360 to help fund the development of XNA.

It all comes down to money in the end.

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Hehe...

At the very beginning you've mentioned that you "got one". What doest it mean?

Here is the first step: you want to make a game in PS3...

I assume you've already got some skills in OpenGL, and GL shader.

1. Buy a SDK (including the hardware) for 10K US (price drops to 10K only recently and It was originally 20K)
2. Read through the first party compliance stuff. Which is total bullshit and you have to comply otherwise Sony won't publish your game (not even for free).
3. Setup the SDK in Visual Studio.
4. Learn about PSGL on the go, which is a embedded OpenGL library used specifically on PS3, which also sucks major ass.
5. Spend a few handred bucks on Blu-ray writer
6. Spend another 40k for submission.

Then finally we can play your game...

It sucks right?

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neonic    367
Quote:
Original post by sanman
Why have these limitations/arrangements been created?

Why not just let developers develop as they please to?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983

Thats why.
;p

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j_smith4    100
Quote:
Original post by sanman
Why have these limitations/arrangements been created?

Why not just let developers develop as they please to?


It's so Sony can keep a certain level of quality to their games. There are mounds and mounds and mounds of crap for the PC. The video game crash is an example of what happened to Atari when everybody was making games for it. Honestly I'm all for the high price point to really get into 360/PS3 developement. Makes sure the company is serious about making a game and not just some random PC drivel.

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Detroit Rock    122
Quote:
Original post by Promit
You can't, unless you're willing to settle for the crippled linux environment that offers no access to the GPU or any of the SPUs.


You get access to 6 of the 8 SPEs, but no (known) access to the GPU. Last i read nobody is certain exactly how much GPU access is restricted- there's no documentation from Sony on it. But even if access wasn't restricted, that complete lack of documentation means absolutely no drivers at this point.

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Naku    151
The last access to the GPU doesn't completely put a stopper on things.

There's a feature at http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2007/03/07/cell-power-at-gdc-2007/ that shows something rendered in real-time entirely on the CPU. If they can do that I'm sure Tetris will be possible.

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johdex    247
About the video game crash being the cause for restricting access to development kits: I don't think that's the main issue. According to the wikipedia article (whose quality does not go unchallenged, seeing the warnings at the top of the page), a key ingredient of the crash was "too many console types". I think that had more to do with the crash than excess of crappy games.

Youtube is awash with poor-quality movies, but that does not seem to endanger Hollywood much (or even Youtube itself, for that matter).

Another counter-example is the PC software market. Lot of junk available at all prices, yet the software industry is thriving.

I've heard console makers sell their hardware at a loss and get their money back with games. That may be especially true of the PS3, seeing the kind of unusual hardware it contains. In that case, free access to dev kits is obviously a no-go.

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Dancin_Fool    785
Quote:
Original post by johdex
About the video game crash being the cause for restricting access to development kits: I don't think that's the main issue.


I think it was the cause, think about it this way. How is a company like Atari supposed to stay in business when everyone is going around releasing games for their console without giving them a cut.

It can't be compared to the PC market because it's completely different. With PC's people are always upgrading their hardware, and that hardware is being produced by a multitude of companies. It's a much more free range development platform.

Now if we had Sony and Microsoft allowing free development on their console, that cuts out a huge amount of revenue for them, all of a sudden they have no money to develop the PS4 or the XBox 720. You have to remember they are losing money on each console they sell, I think Nintendo is the only ones who are making money on each sale of their console.

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Dancin_Fool    785
Quote:
Original post by Naku
The last access to the GPU doesn't completely put a stopper on things.

There's a feature at http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2007/03/07/cell-power-at-gdc-2007/ that shows something rendered in real-time entirely on the CPU. If they can do that I'm sure Tetris will be possible.


It doesn't look like that's being rendered on the CPU. What they're doing is sending off the rendering jobs over the network to a render farm, which then sends the data back. In this case all the PS3 is doing is acting like a server and blitting to the screen.

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