DirectInput and Windows messages

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Hi! I'm new at this great forum, so this is my first post. Hi everyone!! :D I'm quite familiar with DirectInput setting up (creating DirectInput interface, creating devices, ...) but I really don't know what to do about Windows message queue. If I use DirectInput for managing user input, does it mean that I have to completely forget about managing Windows messages? Should I not call TranslateMessage and DispatchMessage?? An example: while (1) { if (PeekMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_REMOVE)) { if(msg.message == WM_QUIT) break; TranslateMessage(&msg); DispatchMessage(&msg); ProcessKBInput(); Render(); } else { } } Here I manage keyboard input with ProcessKBInput() function and manage Direct3D stuff with Render() function. My other question is: are ProcessKBInput() and Render() calls well where they are? Should I move them to the "else" part of the loop? Where should I call this functions? I hope was clear. Thank you very much for your help! Keep up this good work!! ;)

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You are only handling input and rendering when a message has been recieved, but you probably want to do this every frame, like so:

while (1){	if (PeekMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_REMOVE))	{		if(msg.message == WM_QUIT)			break;		TranslateMessage(&msg);		DispatchMessage(&msg);	}	ProcessKBInput();	Render();}

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 If I use DirectInput for managing user input, does it mean that I have to completely forget about managing Windows messages? Should I not call TranslateMessage and DispatchMessage??

I'm pretty sure the answer is no (after all, not all messages are input messages), but what you should do is completely forget about DirectInput for handling keyboard and mouse input (you can still use it for joysticks). Here's why.

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First of all, thanks for replying, you are so kind (and so fast!) :)

I understand this code snippet you pasted and it makes sense, thank you. I suppose then that Windows message handling will depend on my DirectInput keyboard type (if it is exclusive or non-exclusive and all of that)...

Regarding to not using DirectInput for keyboard and mouse, I have to say that I read everywhere that Windows keyboard message handling is too slow for game programming. That's a bit of a contradiction by Microsoft... That's why I decided to learn DirectInput. And not that I don't believe what you said, but I would like to continue using it. I think the link you posted refers more than anything to user TEXT input, that obviously is tedious under DirectInput.

Thank you very much for replying Gage64! ;)

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Quote:
 Original post by PezMutanTRegarding to not using DirectInput for keyboard and mouse, I have to say that I read everywhere that Windows keyboard message handling is too slow for game programming. That's a bit of a contradiction by Microsoft... That's why I decided to learn DirectInput. And not that I don't believe what you said, but I would like to continue using it. I think the link you posted refers more than anything to user TEXT input, that obviously is tedious under DirectInput.
No, DirectInput is slower than using window messages. Window messages are being sent to your window anyway, you're just not using them (Although when you use DirectInput for mouse input, you no longer get WM_MOUSEMOVE messages). DirectInput just spawns another thread to read those messages, meaning you have the additional overhead of thread context switching.

There's only a few reasons to use DirectInput:
• You need high DPI mouse input and you need to target pre-XP machines (Bear in mind that Win2k is 8 years old now)
• You need Force Feedback

To answer the original question; your message loop should remain unchanged. The cost of calling TranslateMessage() is almost nill, and you still need to process other messages.

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Thanks Evil Steve.

You mean that I should leave the loop like I first posted it?

About DirectInput, I really can't say surely because I'm such a beginner, but in my opinion DirectInput tries to improve keyboard management and this improvement has a cost, that is the new thread you say.

Anyway, I don't know exactly what are you refering to when you use the term SLOWER than Windows messages. Either you want to say that DirectInput makes your computer "slower" because of the extra work that the new thread involve, or you really mean that keyboard managing (keydown and keyup) are slowerly notified to an application that uses DirectInput than one that uses Windows messaging system.

I think first case is irrelevant considering state-of-the-art computers. In case it's the second one, I don't understand why Microsoft would develop DirectInput if it doesn't improve Windows messages in some kind of way.

Like I said before, it's not that I don't "believe" what you say, but I don't find any other explanation for having read many manuals that recommend using DirectInput for game development instead of Windows message queue.

Thank you! ;)

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Quote:
 Anyway, I don't know exactly what are you refering to when you use the term SLOWER than Windows messages. Either you want to say that DirectInput makes your computer "slower" because of the extra work that the new thread involve, or you really mean that keyboard managing (keydown and keyup) are slowerly notified to an application that uses DirectInput than one that uses Windows messaging system.

It's certainly no faster, and Windows messages are more direct.

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 I don't understand why Microsoft would develop DirectInput if it doesn't improve Windows messages in some kind of way.

It lets you work with joysticks and gamepads much easier. It happens to support keyboard/mouse stuff as well, but it's keyboard/mouse stuff isn't as good. Use it for joysticks or gamepads, not for keyboard/mouse stuff.

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Quote:
 Original post by PezMutanTThanks Evil Steve.You mean that I should leave the loop like I first posted it?
Yup.

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 Original post by PezMutanTAbout DirectInput, I really can't say surely because I'm such a beginner, but in my opinion DirectInput tries to improve keyboard management and this improvement has a cost, that is the new thread you say.
Improve it how? You get action mapping, but that's really it for keyboard input.

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 Original post by PezMutanTAnyway, I don't know exactly what are you refering to when you use the term SLOWER than Windows messages. Either you want to say that DirectInput makes your computer "slower" because of the extra work that the new thread involve, or you really mean that keyboard managing (keydown and keyup) are slowerly notified to an application that uses DirectInput than one that uses Windows messaging system.I think first case is irrelevant considering state-of-the-art computers. In case it's the second one, I don't understand why Microsoft would develop DirectInput if it doesn't improve Windows messages in some kind of way.
It's slower because DirectInput does (more or less) exactly the same as your app is doing alrady, just in another thread. That means that there's more going on in your app. It's not a massive speed difference, the other issues that DirectInput has are of greater concern.
DirectInput had its uses on pre-XP versions of Windows for Mouse or Joystick input, but never had any advantage for keyboard input. I'd guess that the reason they added keyboard support was for consistancy.

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 Original post by PezMutanTLike I said before, it's not that I don't "believe" what you say, but I don't find any other explanation for having read many manuals that recommend using DirectInput for game development instead of Windows message queue.)
They were most likely written a few years ago, where supporting pre-XP was more important.

DirectInput can in some cases be more responsive, but for games, that's not important at all. Because DirectInput reads keyboard messages in a thread, it can read keypresses that happen during a frame. Your code just checks once a frame (Pumps window messages once, checks for keyboard input once), so you won't benifit from this. If you were writing an app that needs to check keyboard input more frequently, DirectInput would seem to be more responsive that window messages; but you could just pump window messages more than once per frame to get the same effect.

As I meantioned, speed is just a minor point, the other points are more important - the only reason I mention it is because people often say that DirectInput is lower level and must be faster to use. If you look at my journal entry (Gage64 linked to it), there's more important reasons - if you're using DirectInput, you'll have difficulty supporting languages like Chinese, and even languages with different keyboard layouts.
If you use DI for mouse input, you loose pointer balistics that Windows provides for free, which makes the mouse feel weird if you ever have a cursor onscreen (Not for E.g. a 3D camera, but for GUI style apps), because it doesn't behave the same as the cursor normally does in Windows.

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Wow, this is definitely a great forum, so many responses in such a short time... thank you very much! ;)

I agree that it's silly doing something that is already done (in this case, keyboard management with Windows messages), but I think DirectInput gives you a level of abstraction so you can treat your keyboard as a joystick or a gamepad, forgetting about keycodes and stuff and thinking of keys as if they were buttons. I think this may be good for game development, as well as the more responsiveness you mentioned.

It makes sense what you said about when the manuals I've read were written, I suppose they became a little obsolete.

To sum up, we could say it's a matter of taste using Windows messages or DirectInput, or you STRONGLY recommend using Windows messages?

Also, I didn't understand very well what you meant in your last paragraph about using DirectInput for mouse input.

Thank you! ;)

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Quote:
 Original post by PezMutanTTo sum up, we could say it's a matter of taste using Windows messages or DirectInput, or you STRONGLY recommend using Windows messages?
It depends how much code you have so far. If it's not going to be too much work to change to window messages, I'd go with that.

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 Original post by PezMutanTAlso, I didn't understand very well what you meant in your last paragraph about using DirectInput for mouse input.
In Windows, move the mouse 10cm on your desk slowly, and notice how far the cursor moves. Now move it 10cm quickly, and notice that the cursor moves further. That's pointer ballistics - adding acceleration to the pointer, basically. There's quite a lot of work gone into making it feel natural, and duplicating it can be difficult.

If you use DirectInput, it doesn't apply pointer ballistics to the cursor, so it'll move the same distance no matter how fast you move the mouse. That can make GUIs feel weird compared to Windows. Unreal Tournament 2004 has this for instance, and so do many other games that are mostly 3D.

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Ok, I understand now. Thanks for everything Evil Steve!! (and all of you ;))

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