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Diablo Street Fighter

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Does anyone have any ideas for executing different combat moves from an isometric-like perspective? The directional controls need to be friendly with a keyboard, a d-pad, and an analog stick. Here's a picture to illustrate the view, with keyboard input directions: Image Hosted by ImageShack.us EDIT: Oops, swap the S and the D. The camera can spin around the character to any angle, so it can become next to impossible to choose "right" from "forward" with WSAD. Because of this, I've limited any given situation to use forward and back OR left and right, and never both at the same time. In other words, there will never be a situation where forward + attack will do something AND right + attack with do something, just one or the other. Here are the controls.. Directions: U,D,L,R Attack buttons: A,B Here are the few move types I've come up with so far.. 1) Attack (no direction) 2) Hold direction + attack 3) Tap direction, attack (press direction, release direction, attack, within a time) That's it. Not too many. With three types to execute attacks, and two attack buttons, the total number of moves for one situation is about 10, but I would really like to add more variety. I don't want any of the moves to be a challenge to pull off during a heated fight. I want something that's easy to do when you want, but not easy to do by mistake. Any ideas? [Edited by - Kest on January 9, 2008 6:35:09 PM]

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I'd go for a Smash Bros style control scheme over a street fighter one as it's better suited for multidirectional play. In addition to what you listed there is the possibility of multiple buttons being hit at a time. You can also add a special attack button like in Smash Bros

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You could do Senko No Ronde style input patterns.

For example, press the jotstick in any direction, they press the opposite direction and an attack button for a special move. Or like press the joystick in any direction and rotate 90 degrees clockwise/counterclockwise and an attack button for two more different attacks.

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I really only mentioned Street Fighter because of the combat style. The motions required can't be anything similar, since they would be terribly clumsy with WASD. Especially from an overhead view.

But there are combos, and none of them will be as simple as pressing attack multiple times. Here's an example of one combo:

Tap forward, release forward, attack A (stepping chest elbow), wait for it to connect, hold back + attack A (face backhand from elbow), wait for it to connect, hold forward + attack B (thrust kick).

It works great. They're easy to perform, but still challenging to remember the sequences, and challenging to find the best timing. But there just aren't very many variations. Just one or two more would make a big difference.

Pressing both attack buttons would be a possibility. But allowing both buttons to do something would mean I need a delay before a single button does something on its own, which would make the system less responsive.

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Original post by the_dannobot
You could do Senko No Ronde style input patterns.

For example, press the jotstick in any direction, they press the opposite direction and an attack button for a special move. Or like press the joystick in any direction and rotate 90 degrees clockwise/counterclockwise and an attack button for two more different attacks.

So like [back, forward, attack]? I really should have thought of that one myself. It's a great one. But if I understand you correctly, the rotations would be pretty tough with WASD.

I'm unfamiliar with Senko No Ronde. Is that a title or a person? Any more examples? [smile]

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Sorry, I think it's title in the US is "Wartech". It's a top down shooter for the xbox 360, but it's sort of like a top-down fighting game.

It's pretty unique in the way it handles special moves. It has moves like "Press any direction twice in a row + attack" or "Rotate the stick 90 degrees clockwise + attack". The reason it does this is that the camera occupies a fixed position above the play field, so directions relative to the character like forward, back, right, and left are constantly changing. So motions like W,A A,S S,D and D,W all register as the same motion in that game.

If you added moves that require two direction presses adds a lot more possibility to the input patterns (forward, forward + attack; back, forward + attack; etc.) Lots of fighting games also have "charge moves", where the player has to hold one direction for two seconds, then press the other direction + attack.

You could also do something like "hold down attack button to charge a move, release the button to execute the move" where the longer you hold the button the better the move is.

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Just wondering, is there a reason that you only have 2 attack buttons. Even increasing it to 4 buttons can bring in new stuff, i.e. (with buttons A,B,X,Y) Mash X+Y for a move, Mash A+B for a move, A then B then X+Y etc. etc.

Otherwise the only other stuff i can think of is Smash brothers style or things like:

Single Tap A for weak fast move
Double Tap A for a strong slow move
Mash A+B to do a spin to clear lots of enemies ganging up (push them away with little to no damage)

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Original post by the_dannobot
If you added moves that require two direction presses adds a lot more possibility to the input patterns (forward, forward + attack; back, forward + attack; etc.) Lots of fighting games also have "charge moves", where the player has to hold one direction for two seconds, then press the other direction + attack.

I'm definitely looking into it. The one thing that bothers me is that all of these moves can make it impossible to do certain other things without executing an unwanted move. For example, if you're walking backwards, you can't quickly perform a Forward + Attack move. It would instead activate a Back, Forward + attack move. The same is true with forward, forward + attack.

That could be mostly avoided by requiring the direction to be tapped twice - meaning the first direction can't be held down longer than a certain time limit. I'm just a little worried that some of these may get troublesome with an analog stick. Release, back, forward motions wouldn't be bad, but release, forward, release, forward could be a bit tricky with a smooth control stick in a tight spot.

I'm almost considering requiring different types of motions for different types of control devices. Maybe even provide options for the player to choose which style to use for each gimmick.

Quote:
Original post by Beast698
Just wondering, is there a reason that you only have 2 attack buttons. Even increasing it to 4 buttons can bring in new stuff, i.e. (with buttons A,B,X,Y) Mash X+Y for a move, Mash A+B for a move, A then B then X+Y etc. etc.

My biggest reason is that two buttons are the standard for a mouse. I know many mouse devices are getting more complex, but my own mouse only has three. Three didn't seem like a great number, and I've never really liked using clumsy mouse scroll buttons for anything intense.

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By the way, I just realized that I confused the S and the D on the image in my original post. That was pretty dumb. Hopefully, it didn't confuse everyone.

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In beat-em-ups the "Neutral" command (i.e. a pause between button presses) is used a lot to create different possibilities. You could make a distinction between say Forward > Forward > Attack, and Forward > Forward > Neutral > Attack. The former would typically be a quick step followed by some kind of power attack, and the latter a quick step then a duck followed by an uppercut; it works out quite intuitive that way. Another common trick is to have optional delays on parts of a chain by holding down the button longer. For instance if A A B was a punch, punch, kick combo, then holding down the B at the end instead of tapping it would delay the move slightly and make it more powerful (like some kind of super-ninja-spin-kick or something).

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Original post by Kest
My biggest reason is that two buttons are the standard for a mouse. I know many mouse devices are getting more complex, but my own mouse only has three. Three didn't seem like a great number, and I've never really liked using clumsy mouse scroll buttons for anything intense.


Why support the mouse at all for combat??

Why not get the player to put both hands on the keyboard.. Unless you're implementing cursor targetting in some way then it just seems pointless having a mouse in there if only for the sake of supporting just the two buttons on it..?

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Original post by ArchangelMorph
Quote:
Original post by Kest
My biggest reason is that two buttons are the standard for a mouse. I know many mouse devices are getting more complex, but my own mouse only has three. Three didn't seem like a great number, and I've never really liked using clumsy mouse scroll buttons for anything intense.


Why support the mouse at all for combat??

The cursor dictates your facing direction and melee strike targets.

The game doesn't focus on melee combat. It centers around ranged combat with firearms. The majority of melee fighting will usually take place in tournaments, or in special situations where you have no ranged weapons. If players become far too tough and skilled, they may also choose to battle ranged opponents without a ranged weapon. But otherwise, melee fighting will be less frequent than gunfights.

Quote:
Why not get the player to put both hands on the keyboard.. Unless you're implementing cursor targetting in some way then it just seems pointless having a mouse in there if only for the sake of supporting just the two buttons on it..?

One reason is because I don't want to force the player to swap back and forth during a fight. Characters can go from ranged combat to melee combat by just dropping a weapon. By using two buttons on the mouse, ranged combat and melee combat become more similar.

For both hands on the keyboard, I would also need to rely on some type auto-facing mechanism that automatically rotates your character to certain opponents. That would make it pretty difficult to perform melee attacks that require a directional combo, since your character could rotate right in the middle of it. It would also be really annoying when enemy characters run up behind you while you're preparing to fight someone else head on. If the player is in control, he can instead choose to throw one into the other, or do a sweep that hits both, or just jump to the side.

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I think this has been done pretty good in the game Revenant ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenant_(game) ). If you haven't tried it I would really recommend it as a different kind of Diablo game. The combat is definitaly more rewarding, although the polish might not be quite as good.

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