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Ranged weapon classes

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I'm having a really tough time dividing ranged weapons into seperate skill categories. There just doesn't seem to be a logical or interesting division that's broad enough to divide it all into 3-5 groups. I started out by seperating them into four common groups: handguns, SMGs, rifles, and cannons. The thing that really started to bug me was that the SMG group was too specific compared to the others. They're short automatic rifles. Handguns, rifles, and cannons can all be auto, or not, but SMGs are always auto. Still, their compact shape is really interesting - somewhere between a pistol and rifle, so I don't want to just discard the group and call them rifles. But what can I call them? Next, I tried dividing them into three size categories: small, medium, and large firearms. But it didn't take long to realize how bland and uninteresting that is. It also doesn't really divide them in an interesting way regarding the skill of their use. Not that I'm really worried about that, but the blandness makes it worse. The weapons have different types of damage: laser, pulse, plasma, and frag. But it's important to me that the damage types are not used to divide skills. I would also like the skills to fall into a short list, so players don't feel too confined to a limited set of weapons with one character. Other than that, the types of weapons are pretty typical for your every day sci-fi video game setting. I'm totally brainlocked, so I really appreciate any ideas.

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Why exactly are SGMs always full auto? Last I knew, they didn't take the fire selector off the MP-5. You can also use things like PDRs and PDWs, Counter Sniper, Carbine, SAW, Shotgun, Special uses and so forth.

Another way to look at it is your forms of engagement, and then let everything fall into place.

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Again, consider looking at pencil and paper RPGs. Ex: Shadowrun 4 groups firearm skills as: Pistols, Automatics, Longarms and Heavy Weapons, where SMGs and assault rifles are both automatics, but shotguns and sniper rifles are longarms.

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What criteria are important for the player to select a weapon? Sort your weapons according to that.


So, if firepower and mobility are important aspects, something like the following could do:
  • support weapons: good firepower, low mobility
  • assault weapons: average firepower, average mobility
  • standard firearms: low firepower, high mobility

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To original poster, In my opinion, I think there is nothing wrong with sorting them handguns, SMGs, rifles, and cannons.

SMG are alright by themselves, in real life they are a class of weapon by itself.

Handgun: your normal handguns(pistols etc)
SMG: Weapons which use handguns ammunition but have range etc(Styer TMP, HK MP5)
Rifles: Assault Rilfes and their carbines version
Cannon: LAW, SMAW etc

Sidenote:
SMG are generally a more powerfull version of a pistol, but have less stopping power and effective range from a rifle class group. Hence SMG weapons normally use pistol rounds/cartridge with expanded capacity.

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You've got lots of details you can handle, depending on how your game is gonna work. Things like:

Base Damage
Portability
Accuracy
Rate of Fire
Stopping Effect
Different Kinds of Armour Piercing
Splash/Shrapnel Damage
Method of Fire (e.g. direct/timed/arc/placed/etc)

Get as many out of that as you can.

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Quote:
Original post by Elhrrah
Why exactly are SGMs always full auto?

I didn't say they were. But an SMG that only has single shot pulse fire isn't an SMG at all.

Handguns: Silenced pistols, pulse pistols, laser pistols, machine pistols, other small hand-held gadgetry.
Rifles: Shotguns, sniper rifles, pulse rifles, laser rifles, plasma rifles, machine guns
Cannons: Laser cannons, plasma cannons, huge machine guns, rocket launchers

I can't provide the same type of diversity with the SMG group. It's too specifically linked to the fact that it has automatic fire, unlike every other group.

Quote:
Original post by SiCrane
Again, consider looking at pencil and paper RPGs. Ex: Shadowrun 4 groups firearm skills as: Pistols, Automatics, Longarms and Heavy Weapons, where SMGs and assault rifles are both automatics, but shotguns and sniper rifles are longarms.

But then which class would an automatic pistol or automatic heavy weapon fall under? As a player, wouldn't you feel slightly ripped off that your expert pistol wielder can't use a machine pistol?

Quote:
Original post by Captain P
What criteria are important for the player to select a weapon? Sort your weapons according to that.

I want to be careful about dividing the weapons by their usefulness. The player needs to have a great deal of stretching room when choosing between different firearms that are linked to one skill. I'm not at all worried about realism. I just want an interesting and logical division that gives lots of room to breathe.

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How do you want your skills to actually function? Why not post an over view of how they work in other areas, could help people better understand how the rest of the game is going about the problem of skills.


Firearms are very much alike, which makes them hard to split into distinct skill groups. Aiming, Action, and Reloading are where your firearms are different.

For Aiming, you have several factors.
1. Stocked vs Unstocked weapons. (pistols and some SMGs have no means to hold against your shoulder, unlike nearly all rifles or shotguns. Guns with a shoulder stock are far more accurate, and often far more powerful, but can be harder to bring to bear on your target, or to fire blindly around a corner. Give someone a Machine Pistol or handgun, and they could stick it around a doorway and fire down a hall at you far easier than with a long rifle)

2. Supported vs Unsupported weapons. (Most weapons can be supported on something if you are in the right place, resting your hands on a table or windowsill to steady for firing, but smaller weapons aren't likely to take as much of a bonus from it as larger ones. And some aren't going to be of much use unsupported, many medium and all heavy machine guns I can think of can't be fired unless they're being supported on something. Using a bipod, or a tripod greatly increases this effect. The drawback of some supported weapons can be the limited field of fire they give you, some heavy tripods can mean shifting your base of fire much beyond 45 degrees either side of you requires that you move a fair bit.)

3. Length and Weight of the weapon. Short weapons are easier to bring onto a target and shoot, while longer weapons provide superior ranged fighting. A long weapon is also going to snag and catch on things in close quarters.

4. The Action and Recoil of the weapon. Single shots with a low recoil will make aiming easier, while a full automatic with heavy recoil means most of your shots will be off target. At close range a higher rate of fire will do you better, you don't aim so much as spray in their general direction.

5. Sights. Plain iron sights aren't going to do much good at 2000m, but a scope you don't know how to set properly isn't going to help much either.


The weapon's Action. How good are you at cycling the weapon? Never used a bolt action before? You'll be slow reloading. Pump actions are fast and easy and need little training, but often are slow to reload.

Does your character know how to use Magazine release switches on automatic weapons? If he doesn't he'll be far far slower reloading one. Skilled with belt fed weapons? You'll get that machine gun reloaded faster to spew forth more screaming death fury.


I see main skills of:
1. Long Distance Shooting
2. Close Quarters Combat Shooting
3. Semi/Full Automatic Weapons Control

Minor Skills of:
1. Magazine Handling
2. Clip Handling
3. Single Round Handling
4. Optical Sights

I'm not sure if I would include thes skills in Major or Minor skills:
1. Pistols
2. Long Arms (assault rifles, sniper rifles. SMGs would use long arms and pistol skills together)
3. Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns, .50cal + rifles etc.)
4. Specials (Rocket Launchers, grenade Launchers, each with their own sub skill)


Also something that could be useful is have all weapons share different traits for things. I can't instantly pick up any assault rifle and use it perfectly the first time I touch it, but if I use Royal Armoury's Mk4 Self Loading Rifle, chances are I can pick up their Mk5 and know how to use it. If I haven't had time to look at where things are on it, and had never seen that model before or one like it, I'm not going to be able to reload it, it would take me a bit to find the safety and fire selector. If I'm just sitting around in a store looking at it, no problem, I take the time and then I know how to use that weapon. But if I'm in the middle of a firefight, picking up some unknown experimental weapon comes with a risk. Do I have any idea what will really happen when I pull the trigger, and others are already firing at me?

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Not sure how complex you want this system to be — with three to five categories, I'm thinking not very complex — but your dilemma sparked an idea. How do you feel about using a synergistic system where two or more skills are combined to generate a specific weapon skill? For example, have small-to-large weapon skills, and then have automatic and semi-automatic skills. Combine the two to generate a "real" skill value, which may or may not be visible to the player, your choice.

Another option would be to have skill "enhancements," similar to White Wolf systems, where players can purchase a specialty for each skill that grants a bonus under specific circumstances, e.g., "automatic fire" for rifles, "dual wield" for pistols, etc. In this case you'd have to decide if you want a separate SMG category or if you want to classify them as pistols (or maybe heavy pistols) since they technically can be wielded one-handed.

How do you classify flamethrowers and recoilless rocket launchers, just out of curiosity? What about mounted weapon systems, like the .50-cal on a Hummer? Miniguns? The "smart" rifle in Aliens, which has a harness? I'd consider a category called "support" for super-heavy weapons like this.

Anyway, thanks for inspiring some thought on the matter, as this is something I would have to consider myself in the future.

EDIT: Whoops, Talroth beat me to the punch!

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Quote:
Original post by Kest
Quote:
Original post by SiCrane
Again, consider looking at pencil and paper RPGs. Ex: Shadowrun 4 groups firearm skills as: Pistols, Automatics, Longarms and Heavy Weapons, where SMGs and assault rifles are both automatics, but shotguns and sniper rifles are longarms.

But then which class would an automatic pistol or automatic heavy weapon fall under? As a player, wouldn't you feel slightly ripped off that your expert pistol wielder can't use a machine pistol?

In SR4, machine pistols are used with Automatics. However, I wouldn't feel ripped off since (a) machine pistols are pretty crappy weapons in SR4 and (b) there are burst fire capable heavy and light pistols.

However, SR4 isn't the only pencil and paper RPG with modern weapons in it. If you went to GURPS you'd find that Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Shotguns, Light Machine Guns, etc. are all different skills. However, if you have Pistols skill, you can still pick up a SMG and fire it with your pistol skill, albeit at a penalty.

Again, you might want to go spend an hour or two at a local game or comic shop that stocks RPGs and just browse through what they have available.

If you want to go super detailed you can make a separate skill for each grip, firing mechanism, projectile type, reloading type, etc. and just combine the skills for the weapon. For example, using a machine pistol in full automatic you'd sum together the user's Pistol Grip, Light Ballistic Ammo and Full Auto skills together and use that to fire. But for a heavy pistol then use Pistol Grip, Semi Auto and Medium Ballistic Ammo.

If you want simpler than that you're just going to have to accept some arbitrariness in your system. It's pretty silly in Fallout that I can have a 300% firearms skill and a 45% energy weapons skill when shooting a laser pistol, but it wasn't the end of the world.

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Quote:
Original post by Talroth
How do you want your skills to actually function? Why not post an over view of how they work in other areas, could help people better understand how the rest of the game is going about the problem of skills.

My skill system is a work in progress, so it's open for improvements. The basic setup is simple. There are no trees, but some skills work to boost shared game abilities.

For example, there's an Aiming Accuracy skill which increases the character's aiming accuracy, and a Weapon Handling skill which improves the character's aiming resolution / recoil / reloading. Both skills work with all firearms. But rather than training these, the player can instead upgrade the Handguns skill to improve both Aiming Accuracy and Weapon Handling when wielding handguns. There are more ranged combat skills, but I'm still fleshing it out.

Quote:
Firearms are very much alike, which makes them hard to split into distinct skill groups.

Especially when every single trait that can be used to seperate them is a gradually shifting value. For example, within the confines of the game, there are no real automatics. Every gun is automatic due to the fact that you just hold the mouse button down to fire them. Weapons just have varying fire rates, and there's no well defined firing rate to draw a line and say "automatic". I've played some games where a really great (non-machine) pistol can fire faster than a crappy rifle machine gun.

Quote:
I see main skills of:
1. Long Distance Shooting
2. Close Quarters Combat Shooting
3. Semi/Full Automatic Weapons Control

With the limitations of my game's view, nearly all ranged combat will be close range. There will be a snipe mode available, but the character can't move around while it's active, so it will have limited use.

Quote:
Original post by SiCrane
Again, you might want to go spend an hour or two at a local game or comic shop that stocks RPGs and just browse through what they have available.

I've been looking around for ideas, but there just aren't enough ranged weapon role playing games to leech ideas from :)

All that I've seen or played have the basic pistol/smg/rifle/heavy/energy setup, or something very similar to it.

I'm considering just renaming the SMG group to "subguns" or "subarms" or some such nonsense. Just dumping off the "machine". Or maybe SRGs. Sub-rifle guns.

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Quote:
Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Isn't a submachinegun a machinepistol? MP designation on the Hk series and all?

I'm not going to disagree with it. I'm not much of a ranged weapons expert. I only enjoy the fictional variety in gaming. I would consider an uzi a machine pistol, but not something like a P90 or MP5. But then again, I didn't even originally know "machine pistol" was a legitimate weapon. I thought I was making it up.

With the removal of the SMG class, it doesn't matter too much. The weapons will be given sub-class names like machine pistol or gauss rifle, but they're just to help players understand their general behavior. Those sub classes won't be tied to skills.

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Quote:
Original post by Kest
But then which class would an automatic pistol or automatic heavy weapon fall under? As a player, wouldn't you feel slightly ripped off that your expert pistol wielder can't use a machine pistol?


I'd be more likely to feel that the pistol class was stepping on my automatics expert's toes. Assuming, of course, that the machine pistol was at least somewhat effective in situations you'd want an automatic. But only "more likely"; game balance plays into it a lot and it may work just fine for the pistol expert to be able to do some light automatics work.

Actually, in Fallout, I never saw the need for energy weapons. With the .223 pistol and the Gauss weapons, small arms was all I ever needed.

Quote:
Original post by Kest
For example, there's an Aiming Accuracy skill which increases the character's aiming accuracy, and a Weapon Handling skill which improves the character's aiming resolution / recoil / reloading. Both skills work with all firearms. But rather than training these, the player can instead upgrade the Handguns skill to improve both Aiming Accuracy and Weapon Handling when wielding handguns. There are more ranged combat skills, but I'm still fleshing it out.

...

Especially when every single trait that can be used to seperate them is a gradually shifting value. For example, within the confines of the game, there are no real automatics. Every gun is automatic due to the fact that you just hold the mouse button down to fire them. Weapons just have varying fire rates, and there's no well defined firing rate to draw a line and say "automatic". I've played some games where a really great (non-machine) pistol can fire faster than a crappy rifle machine gun.


Ya know, I was starting to wonder. I mean, this is Kest, and he's trying to divide weapons into black and white categories? I couldn't believe my eyes! [grin]

Doesn't this solve your problem? Don't divide them into categories, place them along continua. Now, have discrete skills that focus on various points along those continua: weapon size, rate of fire, etc. The nearer the weapon is to that skill's ideal, the better the character will do with it. Basically, if the problem is that you're not comfortable making shades of grey into black or white, just leave them shades of grey.

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If you are going to do away with a SMG classification. Then you would drop the PDWs to the pistols, and raise the PDRs to the Assault rifles. That division would create more variance within the two respective fields, so things don't feel "too narrow."

We can sit here and debate facts (there is a bunch of small things to tear apart) about real weaponry, or we can take actual examples and debate those into their respective groups.

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I would start with simple classification and then expand on that. Then factor skills in for each classification.

For me the most important variable for a ranged weapon is
Portability which someone mentioned earlier and closely paralelled with
Damage followed by
Range which is variably linked with
Accuracy
etc

I would suggest sketching out some simple hierarchy trees and see what evolves..

Good luck, it's an excellent question you posed and I have it bookmarked to follow everyone's feedback as the answers are applicable to some of my projects.

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Quote:
Original post by Way Walker
Ya know, I was starting to wonder. I mean, this is Kest, and he's trying to divide weapons into black and white categories? I couldn't believe my eyes! [grin]

Why would that be so surprising? [smile]

Quote:
Doesn't this solve your problem? Don't divide them into categories, place them along continua. Now, have discrete skills that focus on various points along those continua: weapon size, rate of fire, etc. The nearer the weapon is to that skill's ideal, the better the character will do with it. Basically, if the problem is that you're not comfortable making shades of grey into black or white, just leave them shades of grey.

Hmmm, that's a pretty interesting idea, and one I've never thought of. So each skill sets a value along a linear range, and each weapon feature lands on a certain number on that range, defining which two skills to factor between? Sounds like keyframe animation.

That's really clever, but it doesn't really help my problem of defining broad weapon categories. I don't want to define a specific skill for handling varying ranges of firing rates. I want to define skills by weapon size or type. So I would still need a skill type that can fall between handguns and rifles, which SMG is still too specific for. I mean unless I go back to defining them as small, medium, large, etc.

In any case, I love the idea of factoring between skills. I don't think I've ever seen the concept used for skills in gaming before. I might use that on top of whatever I go with.

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Forgot to reply to this..

Quote:
Original post by Way Walker
Actually, in Fallout, I never saw the need for energy weapons. With the .223 pistol and the Gauss weapons, small arms was all I ever needed.

I never saw a need for a sperate weapons skill for energy weapons. But I don't think a need is required for weapons themselves to be included. There was no need for Walamingos, either. But having them there was entertaining.

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Quote:
Original post by Kest
Hmmm, that's a pretty interesting idea, and one I've never thought of. So each skill sets a value along a linear range, and each weapon feature lands on a certain number on that range, defining which two skills to factor between? Sounds like keyframe animation.

That's really clever, but it doesn't really help my problem of defining broad weapon categories. I don't want to define a specific skill for handling varying ranges of firing rates. I want to define skills by weapon size or type. So I would still need a skill type that can fall between handguns and rifles, which SMG is still too specific for. I mean unless I go back to defining them as small, medium, large, etc.


The thing is, if it's on a continuum, there's no need to define a weapon as small/medium/large, just smaller/larger when compared to a different weapon. At most, you could say it's nearer/farther from the "medium guns" skill. Since "SMG" is no longer a formal category, you're no longer defining a skill that's too specific. At worst, you're probably left with the simple fact that there are no weapons between small and medium that don't have a slow rate of fire.

Quote:

I never saw a need for a sperate weapons skill for energy weapons. But I don't think a need is required for weapons themselves to be included. There was no need for Walamingos, either. But having them there was entertaining.


Right, when I said "need", I was referring to a combat need. Fallout wouldn't have been the same without that tech, but the pulse and plasma rifles just didn't offer enough over the Gauss weapons or the .223 pistol. If they did, then they could justify the separate skill. Otherwise, just make them small arms.

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Original post by Way Walker
The thing is, if it's on a continuum, there's no need to define a weapon as small/medium/large, just smaller/larger when compared to a different weapon.

But that was never a problem. I don't mind labeling a certain weapon as being medium size, or as an SMG. I just don't want a skill labeled as medium or SMG.

I can't title the skills as small, medium, and large, because there's more than just size differences between the weapon classes. Handguns vs SMGs vs rifles vs cannons are all held, manipulated, and aimed differently.

And I can't title a skill as SMG because the machine part doesn't fit all of the weapon types that will go into the class.

Removing machine from SMG will not change any of the fundamental ingredients of the class that seperate a pistol from a rifle, or a rifle from a cannon, or a pistol from a cannon. I just need another name for it.

Quote:
Right, when I said "need", I was referring to a combat need. Fallout wouldn't have been the same without that tech, but the pulse and plasma rifles just didn't offer enough over the Gauss weapons or the .223 pistol. If they did, then they could justify the separate skill. Otherwise, just make them small arms.

A different type of offense would have been ideal, but not a better offense. I think an equal balance between all weapon classes that have equal skills would be a good design. If energy weapons are more powerful and cause splash damage, they could have slower firing rates and worse accuracy to make up for it. This would cause players to play differently. Holding off a shot and trying to get enemies to pile up so they can blast more than one at a time.

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Team Fortress has some interesting classes and can be a starting point.

Classes that I think would be interesting in your game.

A Dual wielding pistol/small arms user. The class is relatively fast moving, fast reloading, and gets a bonus to accuracy. They have light armor and act as a high damage class. Uses gadgets for offense and defense.

A spy, pistol with silencer, traps, stealth, and attacks of opportunity.

Soldier. Straight forward class and does not specialize in any one direction too much.

Soldier sub classes can be based on types of damage in you game.

Cyborg: A class that has the person use large numbers of electronic enhancements. They specialize in energy/laser weapons mostly but also have some other weapon types for situations where they are needed. Their enhancements can provide all sorts of various bonuses but they are all based off of energy levels.

Plasma guns could be large and heavy requiring large bulky people to carry them. Slower movement, heavy armor, big plasma gun. Could be an alien species and class name could be based off of that species.

I am sure you could think of more interesting wrinkles but I think the above is a good place to start. If you have classes I think you really want to make them as interesting as possible.

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Quote:
Original post by Kest
Quote:
Original post by Way Walker
The thing is, if it's on a continuum, there's no need to define a weapon as small/medium/large, just smaller/larger when compared to a different weapon.

But that was never a problem. I don't mind labeling a certain weapon as being medium size, or as an SMG. I just don't want a skill labeled as medium or SMG.


There is no spoon.

Quote:

I can't title the skills as small, medium, and large, because there's more than just size differences between the weapon classes. Handguns vs SMGs vs rifles vs cannons are all held, manipulated, and aimed differently.


Reflected by their differing positions along different continua. Picture a point in 2D space. Just because they have the same x value doesn't mean they're anywhere near the same position since their y values could differ by several orders of magnitude.

Quote:

And I can't title a skill as SMG because the machine part doesn't fit all of the weapon types that will go into the class.


Which is why I suggested not having "classes". Think of it like class-based vs. skill-based character types in RPG's.

Quote:

Quote:
Right, when I said "need", I was referring to a combat need. Fallout wouldn't have been the same without that tech, but the pulse and plasma rifles just didn't offer enough over the Gauss weapons or the .223 pistol. If they did, then they could justify the separate skill. Otherwise, just make them small arms.

A different type of offense would have been ideal, but not a better offense. I think an equal balance between all weapon classes that have equal skills would be a good design. If energy weapons are more powerful and cause splash damage, they could have slower firing rates and worse accuracy to make up for it. This would cause players to play differently. Holding off a shot and trying to get enemies to pile up so they can blast more than one at a time.


Right, but even a better offense could've been significant if the energy weapons had out-classed small arms late game and required a different skill to use. That sort of quantitative difference would effect a qualitative change in character design and cause players to play differently. This is especially true since they already included the qualitatively different offense you described (heavy weapons).

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Quote:
Original post by Kest
But then which class would an automatic pistol or automatic heavy weapon fall under? As a player, wouldn't you feel slightly ripped off that your expert pistol wielder can't use a machine pistol?


No. Firing full auto is completely different from firing single shots with a pistol. I would say it's two separate skills. I would put automatic pistols in the SMG category and keep it separate from the rifle category. SMG often have higher rate of fire with smaller projectiles when compared to rifles.

If you're going to break guns up by skill and want any sort of realistic edge to it, they should be grouped by firing and reloading characteristics. If an energy weapon has the same sort of recoil and fire rate as an SMG, make it an SMG regardless of its munition type.

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This topic is relevant to something I happen to be working on. Having thought about it, I would consider using three basic skill categories - handgun, rifle, and cannon - and then giving the weapons a percentage from one or several of them.

A standard handgun might have 100% handgun, an automatic handgun might be 75% handgun and 25% rifle, and an SMG might be 50% handgun and 50% rifle. It doesn't need to be linear, either; a miniature grenade launcher might be 50% handgun and 50% cannon. Maybe not these exact numbers, but I hope that was clear on the idea; you would gain skills in one of three weapon archetypes, but the weapons themselves might not fit cleanly into one of them, so they would benefit partially from more than one.

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In your game does the player control one or multiple characters,

From a gameplay perspective if the player has multiple characters its ok for them to be over specialized but if only one I don't see the advantage of giving the player 20 weapons but effectively saying they only get to use 5 of them. So if one character I would give a lot cross skills bonuses so even if they specialized in one type using other weapons would still be viable in some situation.

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