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dirk1

new here, full of questions: here's number 1!

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dirk1    100
hi people, im really a amateuristic noob at the whole programming concept. BUT im planning to get in deep:). the reason why is as follows: i have got quite a decent machine i think: Dual Pm xeon 2.0 1 G mem. Nvid GF FX 5500 256 mb seagate 72 10000 rpm etc. it might not be the newest but thats exactly my point. hardware/software development is so fast paced nowadays they can hardly match -up in terms of compatibility with eachother. now im not a person who feels like running to the stores to get for instance a new high end vid card , just because a shader package is not supported on my almost equally power-full old one. onto the topic: why is it that game developer's , other then just complying certain laws/guidelines give solid info on the engine , system requirements and compatibility and leave it at that. what i mean is why does a game like call of duty 4 pop up a message saying i cannot play my game because i dont have the minimum requirements (to be specific- supposedly my vid-card wont support separate alpha blending) as i am no idiot i read the minimum requirements and was convinced i could tweak the game enough to fulfill my pleasures. but it does not even run. heres the deal. so now i need to go from amateur-tweaker to semi-professional programmer lol. maybe someone can lead me into the light by telling me where i need to go to overwrite the checking system pre-launch. or better where do i find out if i can tweak /recode my shader-compatibility well interesting stuff here anyway.if no one replies ill figure out slooooooooowly:) greetings from an enthusiastic gamer (very attached to his "old" system)

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Wan    1366
There is no standard mechanism for that. For all we know, the program contains a hard-coded condition like:
if (shaderModel < 3)
{
exit("fail");
}
If you're lucky, the requirements are placed in a separate human readable file you can edit. But that's very unlikely and you would have to reverse engineer the software which is not only very difficult and tedious to do, but probably illegal too. There's a reason why the game refuses to run: because, you know, it can't.

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Sneftel    1788
Alright. So sometimes I need to go places. I don't have a car, but I do have a cardboard box. Why is it that I can't just get into the box and drive where I need to go? I'm no idiot, and I understand that I won't get there at 60 MPH. But I'm convinced I could tune it up well enough to fulfill my pleasures. But it doesn't even start up! How can I fix that so I can just drive somewhere?

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dirk1    100
wel thanks for the trouble of answering anyway:)
this does sound a little complicated: reverse engineering.
don't particularly want to go there.
but there are more options then just deleting or changing such a simple rule as you described.
legal of course since its a bought product and im just not obligated to fulfill certain sytem requirements,for legally minimum system requirements is just a minimum at which the developer can guarantee the game running as intended and if i want to rewrite a piece of code interacting between my system and the product to skip certain procedures, as long as i do it on my own pc and refrain from selling it as if it was my own product/code etc there should be no issues.

i'd like to find out more on the other possibilities (advanced tweaking or recoding the drivers ) or maybe start thinking on developing a tool to upgrade shader packages on older vidcards, should be possible, only question is would it be worth the hassle?
as i am now i'd say yes, but thats only because im not even comprehending the skillset needed to even participate in such a project.so i need to figure that out first:)

still annoying that i do not even have the option to run the game to my likings as long as the core and the memory are able to, and the graphics could be displayed..
bit too commercial to my taste: of course from social-economical
viewpoint its obvious that 80 % just wants to insert disc and play and gullibly
upgrade hardware accordingly, or take no for an answer.
what about the other 20%?

greetings

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Sneftel    1788
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
i'd like to find out more on the other possibilities (advanced tweaking or recoding the drivers ) or maybe start thinking on developing a tool to upgrade shader packages on older vidcards, should be possible, only question is would it be worth the hassle?
No, and no. Look, old video cards aren't just slower versions of new video cards. There is circuitry they do not have. Asking them to do modern graphics techniques would be futile. They do not have the capability of doing them. You mistake pragmatism for gullibility.

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Alright. So sometimes I need to go places. I don't have a car, but I do have a cardboard box. Why is it that I can't just get into the box and drive where I need to go? I'm no idiot, and I understand that I won't get there at 60 MPH. But I'm convinced I could tune it up well enough to fulfill my pleasures. But it doesn't even start up! How can I fix that so I can just drive somewhere?


why dont you put some wheels on your cardboard box?
then built in a little processor with a large fan and try sitting in it with a generator , connect to and go at windspeed @.@
what is that your trying to say im foolish?
very narrow minded for a moderator
better give me a hint or some up building criticism

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dmatter    4821
Usually the minimum specification is just that, it's the minimum spec that the software supports, tweaks or no tweaks.

It's possible that you might be able to force on the software rasteriser device, of course then you won't be running at frames-per-second, you'll be running at seconds-per-frame.

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Sneftel    1788
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
why dont you put some wheels on your cardboard box?

Good idea. Why don't you put a video card in yours. [smile]

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dirk1    100
well that sounds a lot better then the first reply sneftel, im of course attending a viewpoint of the "knowledgeless"
im implying that my videocard HAS the needed circuitry but the game code is specified to read from more advanced circuitry and a lot of code would be needed
to imply to the game that the circuits are able to comprehend and supply as needed
but youre saying thats impossible?
or...?

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by dmatter
Usually the minimum specification is just that, it's the minimum spec that the software supports, tweaks or no tweaks.

It's possible that you might be able to force on the software rasteriser device, of course then you won't be running at frames-per-second, you'll be running at seconds-per-frame.


lol i wouldnt mind that from there i could at least try to get back to frames per second:)
where do i find matter on forcing software rasterizer devices except google?
thx

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Wan    1366
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
im implying that my videocard HAS the needed circuitry

How would you know? There's a bit more involved than checking the memory requirements. In fact, the amount of memory on a card says very little about it capabilities. If you think the developers of CoD have made a mistake and you hardware does indeed have support all the requirements, you should contact them.

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Sneftel    1788
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
im implying that my videocard HAS the needed circuitry but the game code is specified to read from more advanced circuitry and a lot of code would be needed
to imply to the game that the circuits are able to comprehend and supply as needed

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The new game doesn't know how to do graphics with your old video card. It's not MacGuyver. It expects to have certain capabilities available to it. If it doesn't find those capabilities, it's not capable of sitting down with a cup of coffee and a copy of GPU Gems to figure out how to use old circuitry to do similar things.

Now, if you had the source code for CoD 4, I suppose you could conceivably rip out the guts of the renderer altogether, and rewrite it from scratch. If you do not have the source code for CoD 4, this is not a feasible proposition. In any case, there's absolutely nothing you could do to make CoD 4 run on your graphics card that would also make other modern video games run on your graphics card. Oh, except getting a new graphics card.

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by WanMaster
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
im implying that my videocard HAS the needed circuitry

How would you know? There's a bit more involved than checking the memory requirements. In fact, the amount of memory on a card says very little about it capabilities. If you think the developers of CoD have made a mistake and you hardware does indeed have support all the requirements, you should contact them.


lol that isnt my point im not even talking about my card having sufficient memory
in the recent past i have been able to play some games that also questioned the compatibility with my system. and these games have been running good after tweaking.
im talking about oblivion for instance, which people with high end vid cards could not render fluidly without major tweaking, that my system after my tweaks ran very smoothly.

and "quote"
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The new game doesn't know how to do graphics with your old video card. It's not MacGuyver. It expects to have certain capabilities available to it. If it doesn't find those capabilities, it's not capable of sitting down with a cup of coffee and a copy of GPU Gems to figure out how to use old circuitry to do similar things.

lol very funny:)
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

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Sneftel    1788
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

I'm confused. What do you think a "shader package" is?

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dmatter    4821
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

If you're lucky and the shaders, along with their hardware requirements, are stored externally from the game then you might be able to write fallback shader paths for your card.

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Wan    1366
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.

Well, if that is true, have you asked the developer/publisher about it? Is there a forum dedicated to the game where you could post? Because then it's more of a support question rather than a game development related question.

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by dmatter
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

If you're lucky and the shaders, along with their hardware requirements, are stored externally from the game then you might be able to write fallback shader paths for your card.


that sounds interesting where could i find more on that? or would you elaborate on fallback shader path?

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by WanMaster
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.

Well, if that is true, have you asked the developer/publisher about it? Is there a forum dedicated to the game where you could post? Because then it's more of a support question rather than a game development related question.


well you've got a point there but ive been reading a lot of forums and no feedback to be found except buy a new videocard from some users.
but i was guessing that i would come closer to the matter here since it probably will involve some recoding , and generally , except for the ini/ config tweaks there is not much talk on that:)

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

I'm confused. What do you think a "shader package" is?


what do you think?
might be more usefull:)

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Wan    1366
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

I'm confused. What do you think a "shader package" is?

I translated it as "the game requires shader model n, and my card support this, but for some reason the software detects shader model n - 1". Not that the shader model is the only thing that matters of course.

BTW, I don't think this thread fits the Business of GD forum anymore.

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dmatter    4821
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
Quote:
Original post by dmatter
If you're lucky and the shaders, along with their hardware requirements, are stored externally from the game then you might be able to write fallback shader paths for your card.


that sounds interesting where could i find more on that? or would you elaborate on fallback shader path?

It entirely depends on the COD4 shader engine really.
Say the renderer doesn't hard-code in anything demanding certain hardware features AND the shaders/effect/material definitions are accessible to you (as .fx files for example) then all that stands in the way of the game running is the required hardware support for those effects - if you modded them to add new techniques for rendering on your video card then the shader engine will detect that and use those paths/techniques instead.

There's a few steep ifs and buts there, it also probably requires you to be able to understand a hardware shader language (HLSL, GLSL or Cg).

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Sneftel    1788
Quote:
Original post by WanMaster
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

I'm confused. What do you think a "shader package" is?

I translated it as "the game requires shader model n, and my card support this, but for some reason the software detects shader model n - 1". Not that the shader model is the only thing that matters of course.

So let's say that you skip the check, and cause the game to think--incorrectly--that the video card can do a particular thing. What should happen when the game actually tries to do that thing?

Actually, let's put some specifics in there. One thing your video card can't do is texture lookups in the vertex program. Suppose a vertex program tries to do a texture lookup. What should happen?

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Wan    1366
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by WanMaster
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

I'm confused. What do you think a "shader package" is?

I translated it as "the game requires shader model n, and my card support this, but for some reason the software detects shader model n - 1". Not that the shader model is the only thing that matters of course.

So let's say that you skip the check, and cause the game to think--incorrectly--that the video card can do a particular thing. What should happen when the game actually tries to do that thing?

Actually, let's put some specifics in there. One thing your video card can't do is texture lookups in the vertex program. Suppose a vertex program tries to do a texture lookup. What should happen?

Erm, you're not asking me, right?

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dirk1    100
Quote:
Original post by WanMaster
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by dirk1
anyway to continue what im saying is that the game does know how to do graphics with my card it just cant locate the right shader package and im not saying cod4 should be patched backwards to make older system users happy.
im trying to find out how i can work around shader package detection

I'm confused. What do you think a "shader package" is?

I translated it as "the game requires shader model n, and my card support this, but for some reason the software detects shader model n - 1". Not that the shader model is the only thing that matters of course.


well not particularly saying that my card would support that request for shader package "n1"
but i know for a fact that the alpha en glow rendering methods used in game could be set to 0 in which case my card would be able to run the game smoothly, and i should then rather say work around shader package detection to get in game and from there i can work in such a manner that i would have visually acceptable renderings and good to decent framerate
thats all i need / want in this case
but for example at a friends pc who also did not meet the minimum requirements for cod 4 i did manage to get it working without a problem how is this possible?
i ask you
(only difference he has an ati and i have the nvidia but both are comparable in specs, trust me on that)


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