A question that has been really burning in the back of my head lately is does the hiding of stats turn the game into a genre it isn't? The Unreal Tournament comparison is well met. If the player just knows that sword X kills stuff faster then axe B, does it become a FPSS(First Person Sword Slasher) and not an RPG at all.

Quote:Original post by AgentShiva
A question that has been really burning in the back of my head lately is does the hiding of stats turn the game into a genre it isn't?

RPG stays RPG even without stats, however user interaction might be significantly worse. If a game developer create hack and slash gameplay, he creates hack and slash, not a RPG. When a game developer creates RPG that pretends it's an interactive movie, he must take all responsibility and create proper interface, and gameplay. Otherwise you would have something like interactions between characters in Fable.

I think the ultimate goal of RPGs should be to abstract everything because in real life the effectiveness of things is abstracted. Numbers and math can be applied to the things we do, but that's not how we interact with the world.

I read an interesting piece here: http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html (sorry, I don't know how to make it a link). Basically it says most, if not all modern RPGs stem from the earliest systems of pen-and-paper RPGs. This caused RPGs to focus on combat and arbitrary statics for items rather than what RPGs should be about in the purest sense of the term: role play.

If you truly want a role play experience then numbers would be abstracted and combat wouldn't need to be the only means of growth. And I think it goes even further: good role play would require a gameplay style that's not focused on growth. So to truly abstract the numbers and make a pure RPG it would require a system built around the journey (and an amazing story/immersive world would definitely help) and the choices made to get to the ends, not about building up stats or getting the +n uber items.

Quote:Original post by Bob_the_dev
Numbers and math can be applied to the things we do, but that's not how we interact with the world.

That's exactly how we interact with the world, in terms of measuring our effectiveness. Every type of skill that can be tought or trained is measured with a numbering system and graded by trainers or teachers.

Without that measurement to see our progress, it is much less meaningful to seek improvement. That's what will happen if stats are hidden from players - they will care less about their character's abilities and less about improving them. If that's the goal here, then it will work.

But if that really is the goal, would it not be more productive to just remove character abilities completely? That will get the job done a lot more effectively.

Quote:Original post by Bob_the_dev
Basically it says most, if not all modern RPGs stem from the earliest systems of pen-and-paper RPGs. This caused RPGs to focus on combat and arbitrary statics for items rather than what RPGs should be about in the purest sense of the term: role play.

Sorry, but that's just crap. Most games are focused on violence and combat because most players enjoy violence and combat. Not because we're stuck in a rut and can't figure out how to jump out of it. Only the most unique among us actually want out of it.

Thank you bob_the_dev, the website http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html was a lot of help. Everything I was looking for was sort of summed up in The No Numbers Concept part of that article.

I really needed to know if a system like this could work, I was sort of dead set in a classic format RPG with a turn based combat system, but now I am liking this idea more and more. The only thing I think will be a major problem is that the art side of the project is not very strong so it will be interesting how we convey all the aspects needed.

Hm.

Quote:To sort of give a vision to the idea, think of playing The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion in first person view without a HUD, no health bars, no magika bars, just a screen showing you the world.

Sundog: Frozen Legacy and Dungeon Master were sort of close to this. I don't think Dungeon Master, for instance, actually states your characters' stats, outside of HP and MP and, uh... hunger and thirst. I think. Haven't played it that recently. I BELIEVE weapon and armor stats WERE shown, but only if a characters' appraise ability was high enough.

In any case, Dungeon Master is considered a true classic.

I guess in your system, you'd either have sharper swords doing more damage because they LOOK ouchier, or players just needing to experiment, or a combination thereof.

Oh, that reminds me. Old series for the Playstation called Kings Field. First person dungeon crawls. Real time ones. Sort of like the Elder Scrolls series, but not open ended. What's interesting, though, is the way weapons feel different. You'd sort of have to play it, but like... just because a sword is numerically stronger, it might be akward to use anyway, or something like that.

Experimentation is fun.

Quote:Too many games have a 'fun and hard way' and a 'boring but most effective way' (eg: far too many MMORPGs have grinding as the best way of leveling).

And the biggest irony is that players tend to take the boring way. And then complain about the game being boring.

Quote:Read up on game theory - a dominant strategy should be avoided at all costs. One of the worst sins in game design, imo.

Weapon obselesence (SP?) is another example of this. You get to a new town, and upgrade your weapons, and is there any reason to stick with your old ones? I've played a few games that get around this, but not many. I think this is why weapon degradation exists.

Quote:Original post by MeshGearFox

Quote:Too many games have a 'fun and hard way' and a 'boring but most effective way' (eg: far too many MMORPGs have grinding as the best way of leveling).

And the biggest irony is that players tend to take the boring way. And then complain about the game being boring.

If the game rewards the player for taking the boring route, then players are not at fault for doing so. That aspect of the game is just badly designed. It's extremely easy to make design mistakes that lead to these situations, too. For example, a slow player-character regeneration feature, such as that in Halo or Vampire: Masquerade, is an incentive to stand still, rather than to press forward. No one wants to stand still for 20 seconds after each encounter with an enemy, but the game will kill your character for not doing so.

Quote:Original post by Kest
That's exactly how we interact with the world, in terms of measuring our effectiveness. Every type of skill that can be tought or trained is measured with a numbering system and graded by trainers or teachers.

Without that measurement to see our progress, it is much less meaningful to seek improvement. That's what will happen if stats are hidden from players - they will care less about their character's abilities and less about improving them. If that's the goal here, then it will work.

But if that really is the goal, would it not be more productive to just remove character abilities completely? That will get the job done a lot more effectively.

Measuring and grading our effectiveness is an arbitrary thing we apply to the world, not something inherently built into our reality. That's what I meant.

And I'm not convinced numbers are needed to show improvement in skills and ability, but I concede that it's probably the best place for their use in an RPG

Quote:
Sorry, but that's just crap. Most games are focused on violence and combat because most players enjoy violence and combat. Not because we're stuck in a rut and can't figure out how to jump out of it. Only the most unique among us actually want out of it.

RPGs are different, they're about role play. Particularly MMOs where some players are content to be nothing but smiths, tailors, etc, and never get their hands bloody.

A single player RPG where combat is optional could be interesting and give the player even more freedom to enter another world on their own terms and be the character they want to be.

Quote:Original post by AgentShiva
Thank you bob_the_dev, the website http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html was a lot of help. Everything I was looking for was sort of summed up in The No Numbers Concept part of that article.

I really needed to know if a system like this could work, I was sort of dead set in a classic format RPG with a turn based combat system, but now I am liking this idea more and more. The only thing I think will be a major problem is that the art side of the project is not very strong so it will be interesting how we convey all the aspects needed.

You're welcome :) I think it's a great site. I found it from one of Jerky's posts here:
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=455304&whichpage=1�
He posted a bunch of links on the topic of MMORPGs if you're interested in that at all

Quote:Original post by Bob_the_dev
RPGs are different, they're about role play. Particularly MMOs where some players are content to be nothing but smiths, tailors, etc, and never get their hands bloody.

There are plenty of players who don't like combat. Especially the female side of the crowd. It's difficult to blame them when the combat mechanics of most role playing games are so stiff, clumsy, tedious, and repetitive. There is a lot of room to improve it before we decide to get rid of it.

Quote:A single player RPG where combat is optional could be interesting and give the player even more freedom to enter another world on their own terms and be the character they want to be.

Many games incorporate such elements, such as Fallout. It's just that Fallout is mostly known for its tactical combat, rather than its dialog system. Very few activities satisfy a thirst for challenge like combat does. Crafting is interesting for a while, but one eventually hungers for conflict.