Selling your labor and EULAs
Author
Some of the software EULAs out there say you agree not to sell what you produce from within their game.
This seems unenforcable (and unreasonable): My labor is mine by definition. If I spend time and effort creating a super-thing in a video game, it is the time and effort I spent that someone else is buying.
At work, I sell this time and effort to an employer. Within most games, the game producer has no interest in buying my time and effort -- but other gamers do.
So? You agree to not sell it when you play the game, simple as that. If you had an argument for your right to sell it, you have waived that right by agreeing to their terms. That aside, what does this have to do with game design?
Author
What does real-world economic concerns have to do with game design? Aside from the obvious stuff like fun games make more money, in multiplayer HGL this poster is a real-world advertisement:
Now that I have laid your concerns about this topic being inappropriate for viewing by game designers to rest:
After you purchase, open -- and thereby render the game unreturnable to the store of purchase -- you are presented with an agreement. Sign here: You agree not to spit on the sidewalk, kick your sister, or give money to anyone except me.
Now that I have laid your concerns about this topic being inappropriate for viewing by game designers to rest:
After you purchase, open -- and thereby render the game unreturnable to the store of purchase -- you are presented with an agreement. Sign here: You agree not to spit on the sidewalk, kick your sister, or give money to anyone except me.
I still don't really see the point of your topic or how it is applicable to the subject of designing games.
Quote:Original post by JasRonq
I still don't really see the point of your topic or how it is applicable to the subject of designing games.
Neither do I. Moving to Business.
I doubt they could defend in court a contract that states anything regarding kicking sisters, but they COULD enforce content sales restrictions. Of course your intellectual property is yours and yours alone, that is not in question. The contract simply forbids you from selling your work.
I believe that the is one of the reasons that Microsoft has the EULA their web site and the url is on the outside of the package, so that you can read it before opening the software. (This might be in part due to a case they had to settle some years ago. *Link*)
That said. If a company wants to prevent sales of in game items to protect their continued sales of the game, IP, community, etc..., they should be able to.
That said. If a company wants to prevent sales of in game items to protect their continued sales of the game, IP, community, etc..., they should be able to.
Quote:AngleWyrmSince you choice to play, this is a bit of compairing apples to oranges.
At work, I sell this time and effort to an employer.
When you do work for an employer, you entered into an agreement to that effect with said employer. When you work for yourself within a game, no such agreement exists. Generally all you do is rearrange data that belongs to the game host. The host has the right to decide what that data means and which players it refers to. I think it's perfectly reasonable to enforce that with game rules and in a contract you must accept in order to play the game. Whether it's enforceable as part of a EULA or not is a slightly separate matter.
Quote:Original post by NathanRunge
I doubt they could defend in court a contract that states anything regarding kicking sisters, but they COULD enforce content sales restrictions. Of course your intellectual property is yours and yours alone, that is not in question. The contract simply forbids you from selling your work.
Not necessarily true as to the IP question. Also keep in mind that the OP didn't mention IP-- just "labor".
If we're talking Second Life, that's one thing. If we're talking about your WoW character, that's an entirely different species of IP. There is no actual "user generated content" in those games that is not designed (sometimes at great cost) by the game's developer. Most MMO EULAs also state that you aren't the owner of your account, it belongs to the game company, and they reserve the right to close, cancel, or ban your account at any time.
For most people who play games, this isn't a big deal, because they play games for entertainment purposes and not for profit. If you're in the market of selling toons and/or gold, just keep in mind that you agreed to the EULA and ToS. Also keep in mind that legally you cannot sell something that you do not own. If you don't like the terms of that agreement, then you're better off playing another game or putting your "labor" to better use.
Author
Quote:Original post by madelelawNicely said.
If you're in the market of selling toons and/or gold, just keep in mind that you agreed to the EULA and ToS. Also keep in mind that legally you cannot sell something that you do not own. If you don't like the terms of that agreement, then you're better off playing another game or putting your "labor" to better use.
Next question: Why would these transactions be frowned upon? Why not design a game that supports and even encourages a real-world economy to flourish within the game universe?
Intellectual property rights have had some time to mature; video and music are considered property, owned by the producing entity, and the files containing it are considered...well I'm not sure exactly, but avi-mp3 files are supposed to be illegal to trade without paying Recording Studios. Could a toon & save-game file be construed in the same way? This is not arguing vs an EULA -- is it possible to create a game where the EULA specifically could state the savegame is the product of the player?
[Edited by - AngleWyrm on May 23, 2008 4:22:29 PM]
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